You can turn off the night light in your bedroom and sleep well again.
Not so sure about that lol
Russia gets 20 years and a DMZ to rearm and go again.
1 Like
I have always maintained here that the only end to the conflict will be the ceding of the occupied territory.
Without nato boots on the ground, Ukraine can’t win.
It’s not ideal the outcome but it’s the most realistic.
In those 20 years you mention, you also understand it is Ukraine who can strengthen themselves and Europe will be ready. Poland already got one of the largest and most sophisticated armies in Europe as a preparation and they will continue to expand their capabilities.
Russia will not be able to overcome Poland and NATO.
If this turns out to be the result. A lot of bloodshed and loss of territory could have been avoided had all parties stuck to the Minsk accords.
Unfortunately yes, and the sentiment in Ukraine is finally turning from at least the people I know.
They were always staunchly against ever letting Russia have anything, even about 4-5 months ago. I didn’t doubt them one bit knowing how proud of a nation they are, but now some of those same people have had enough and want a negotiated end.
Obviously a few friends of mine don’t represent the entire population but I’d be surprised if a lot more aren’t feeling the same.
It’s a shame it will end that way but don’t see any other hope, the US were never supporting Ukraine to win regardless of who was in office.
1 Like
Now that is pretty simplistic, this war is a much wider analysis and rhetoric. Not as simple as black or white.
I whole heartedly agree with you that it is not black and white and the complete picture of the escalation of this conflict is much wider. 
But I am sure we disagree as to the arguments of the wider analysis for why this escalation of the conflict happened.
I just came back from Lithuania visiting my wife’s parents and sister. Every other uber (or Bolt they also have there) driver is Ukrainian and some are from the Donetsk region. I like to talk (hehe) so always interacting with them. Most of them want the war to stop.
Let’s see if Uncle Sam allows Zelensky to stop.
Palestine is listening
Yeah - pretty clear it is a similar situation in terms of impossibility of the weaker party to reclaim occupied territories? The only difference is, in the case of Palestine, the West supports the Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights, illegal settlements of the West Bank and the destruction of Gaza.
A lot of bloodshed could have been avoided if Russia hadn’t decided to unlawfully invade a sovereign country! There is no justification for Russia’s action. None whatsoever, despite your best efforts to suggest Ukraine are partly to blame.
I recall you saying that before, and that isn’t the only outcome. Ukraine can keep fighting until they have reclaimed every inch of territory that Russia have unlawfully occupied. It is utterly insulting to suggest that Ukraine should concede territory or be forced into making that decision. There is no way Britain would have done that in the second world war and people shouldn’t expect Ukraine to do that either. They have the absolute right to defend their country from Russia’s aggression and the West, with or without the USA, need to stand with Ukraine and back whatever course of action, they want to take as a sovereign nation.
Just curious as to why this is the case, given that equally seems to be the will of their own people as time goes on?
It’s a shame but I’m not sure what’s insulting about it. Ukraine will be down to just male football players at this rate.
ok
If Ukraine decide on their own terms that they want to enter into negotiations to end the war, then fine, but they shouldn’t be bounced or forced into that position - that’s what I think is insulting. I also take issue with people, including @Forever who attempt to rationalise Russia’s actions which is equally insulting.
I don’t think anyone will force Ukrainian’s into anything, the only option to do so is if trump decides to be a wanker and withdraw support.
Even then it should be on the EU to step up and fill the gap, if they’re so desperate to pull Ukraine into their trading bloc then they can also take the brunt of the responsibility for defending them.
Ideally the US will at least maintain their support (doubt they up it now with Donny) until a peaceful agreement is reached. It would be unfair to weaken Ukraine’s bargaining power by pulling support now.
2 Likes
That’s basically what Trump has intimated by saying he will end the war, but I agree with you, that against that context, Europe must stand with Ukraine. I just take issue with others saying what Ukraine should do. Ukraine are a sovereign country and have the right to decide their own destiny, and whatever they decide, we should support. In my view, the best outcome of the West, is if Ukraine win, reclaim their territory, and become a full member of NATO.
Nobody says what they should do. They can do whatever they want.
We argue what the most likely outcome is. And that is: cede territory.
We are now how many years into this war? What occupied territory have they reclaimed?
Unless there are nato boots on the ground, it’s unlikely Ukraine will be able to win this war and to preserve their male population they will eventually need to sit around the table and negotiate a peace deal.
As for you taking offense of me rationalizing Russia’s arguments. I don’t really care because I am not a child who sees this conflict black and white.
Russia didn’t enter Ukraine Willy nilly for funzies. It’s right on their border and in their sphere of influence. You wouldn’t be able to tell an eastern Ukrainian apart from a western Russian.
Same way America wouldn’t allow Cuba to fuck around. By the way America occupies Guantanamo bay in Cuba, but that’s okay I suppose.
I don’t accept that this is the most likely outcome. Russia originally expected Ukraine to fall within weeks and yet they are still fighting. Russia haven’t been able to make significant advances since they invaded, and they certainly didn’t expect Ukraine to move into Russian territory. The fact that Russia have got North Korean troops helping them now, shows they are getting desperate. Ukraine can still win this, if the West continues to support them.
Time will show what the outcome will be.
Something we can agree on, and hopefully you are disappointed with the outcome.
For people who suggests/wants Ukraine to back down, to stop the war.
I totally understand the reason behind.
No one wants to lose his/her life.
What if they concede land this time to ask for peace, and Russia comes back in a year or two.
What do you do?
Concede more?
To elect a president that Russia wants?
How is it a good decision to stop the war now, but there is a very high chance the devil will come back and bite you again??
This is a real question for the everyone, especially the Ukrainians.
You stop now, next time Russia is much more closer to Kiev and more easier to invade that city and take over the country.
2 Likes