The Labour Party


#363

Which is absolutely fair enough!

The leadership has left a lot to be desired, and not just over the antisemitism issue.


#364

I think the biggest mistake of the leadership was to not call the whole fracas out for what it is. It would be brave, but then you have to be to run the country well.

I recommend this documentary, it’s amazing to see what happens far away from the influence of the Pro-Israel lobby in the UK. Look, there’s Jewish comedians doing stand-up on Holocaust Memorial Day in Berlin and it’s all okay. It’s the sort of balanced investigative journalism that’s absent round these parts.


#365

Hell yes.


#366

I disagree to an extent.

I intentionally use this phrase again, but to an extent, you have to play the game. The narrative has been established and we can’t change that. There is a problem with antisemitism within the party. Yeah, just like there is in society as a whole and other political parties.

But the left wing and Labour like to portray themselves (ourselves) as the vanguard of anti-racism and anti all other forms of bigotry. If we want to do that then we have to demand higher standards of ourselves than others, and even society as a whole. So it’s not good enough to try and downplay this current issue by saying we/Labour don’t have as big an issue as other parties or sections of society. We have to address our own issues and maybe then we can point to how much worse other people, groups or parties are.

Which is why we can’t just “call this fracas out for what it is”. To do so would only end up playing into the hands of people who say the left specifically has a problem with antisemitism, because we’d be taking a very hard stance on saying this whole issue is unfounded at the same time as it being evident that there are a significant number of people at the local and activist level who are saying some pretty fucking questionable shit. Some of which is antisemitic if we apply the same standards we would to dog-whistle stuff surrounding black people, immigrants or Muslims. I’ve had to stop and conduct a bit of serious self-reflection, and realise that some things I’ve read from people backing Labour are bigoted. If similar comments had been made about the aforementioned groups I’d have been pretty quick to condemn the person making those comments. I wouldn’t stop to rationalise and defend what had been said, I’d have condemned the comments and drawn conclusions on what kind of person they were.

So that doesn’t mean backing down entirely and conceding that every accusation thrown at Corbyn and his iteration of the Labour Party. Many things are being wilfully misconstrued and/or misrepresented, and that needs to be called out. Without sounding conceited, perhaps in the way I posted about Frank Field. You don’t concede every point made, you argue back against that which is demonstrably bullshit.

But what you don’t do is dismiss the whole affair as being pure slander and a total fabrication, which is kind of the sense I’m getting from comments like “I think the biggest mistake of the leadership was to not call the whole fracas out for what it is”. Without wanting to read into your comments too much, because I’m aware that I might just be applying my own drunken interpretation onto your comments @Wivenswold.

As left wing, Corbynite Labour supporters we can talk about what could have been accurately called out, and then we can stop and be pragmatic and talk about to what extent us anf the leadership should be calling things out. To ignore the power of the press and their narrative entirely and stick rigidly to what the most ideologically pure of us think is the reality of the situation absolutely guarantees that we will lose the argument at the end of the day, because we can’t sell everyone that narrative.


#367

Well you can call it out or not, but not calling it out appears to me to have already played into the hands of the people you don’t want to play into the hands of. This story has been consistently making weekly headlines for one reason or another for months now and if Labour are happy to concede that there is a problem without highlighting other problems of other parties / groups / society as a whole then it makes it look like Labour alone has a problem and Labour alone is failing miserably to fix it which is exactly what they wanted.

And what happens when it is fixed? Is the right wing press going to have front pages of “Corbyn’s Labour successfully eradicates antisemitism plague from party”? Are all the other parties going to be expected to reach the same standards in removing all problems from their parties? No, it’ll just be moving on to some other distraction.

I think in this case it would have been possible to call a lot of this out while still giving the generic “we will fight to rid the party of problem” answers which are given anyway.

The best thing Corbyn’s done in ages is his recent offensive on media reform. The media is basically the only thing standing between him and election victory so if he can appear credible when sowing seeds of doubt in the reliability of journalism without acting like a child and calling everyone fake (even though that also appears to have worked), then maybe he can start getting people to realise a lot of this stuff on their own.


#368

It wont stop until Corbyn steps down. And then, magically, the anti-semitism arguments will go away.


#369

Seems blue Labour won yesterday as the party adopted the IHRA (international holocaust rememberance alliance) guideline and what antisemitism is. So now critiquing Israel could land you in trouble :man_facepalming:t5:


#370

Which part of the IHRA guidelines makes you think that Israel can’t be criticised?


#371

One of the examples I think


#372

If that is now classified as a ‘blue Labour’ win then I fucking hope they win more.


#373

Yeah I figured, I’m asking which one


#374

These would be contencious ones:

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.


#375

Being at work I don’t have the time to do justice to my thoughts on those examples, and to comment on them properly feels appropriate. For example the comparing them to Nazis, I’ve spoken on that one already.

So I’m not saying I entirely agree with those statements being indicators of antisemitism.

But I’d feel comfortable criticising Israeli conduct towards Palestine without worrying that I’d be contravening any of those statements/clauses (not that I’m bound by them obviously)


#376

I think it’s this one @JakeyBoy

I think some are concerned that disagreeing with the state of Israel = antisemitism according to the definition. Anyway it’s done now, so best get on with it, on with reselection!


#378

Despite my many issues with Corbyn re Brexit, I’d love to see him elected just so he can get to work putting this cuntrag in the jail cell he belongs.


#379

Nasty lady


#380

She’s violent, abusive and very stupid. It was obvious this was going to come out. She could of just said ‘it’s a family problem we’re working through’ and she could have kept her job as she personally would of done nothing wrong. But instead of that she gets violent and wastes police time to further her causes and bully a journalist. Actually she should be charged by the police with threatening behaviour. And she should of stepped down as an MP, hopefully she’s asked to step aside next election. So she’s stepped out of the shadow cabinet because she wants to hang on to her MP perks.

I also find it unjust that because her son was connected and ‘had a bright future’ he got off, where as if he was a working class kid without powerful connections he would of done hard time. And her son’s got a job working for her on 50k a year, shouldn’t he get more time than the kid who’s on benefits? Representing the many and not the few indeed…


#381

Isn’t that exactly what she did say for ages and ages?

Now I’m not particularly defending her here, but I think this journalist was following her at night time and was on her doorstep, and a bucket of water is hardly a violent act, all things considered. I wouldn’t react well to being followed home late at night by some twat going on about my children.

As to her son it’s common in politics for MP’s to employ their children as staffers or secretaries. I’m not defending the practise, just pointing out it will be practically everyone on all sides doing it. 50K would be a lot for such a role, so I’d be keen to know what experience etc. he has. It may well be a case of nepotism, but it equally might not be. More info needed. What she isn’t is what many other MP’s are, owners of multiple homes and renting them all out with huge MP expenses while they’re at it. She lives an average house in grotty Turnpike Lane. I think as far as corrupt politicians go she’s ultra small fry.


#382

No. She threatened to attack the journalist with a baseball bat. That’s unacceptable on any level. She also lied about now knowing about her son’s drug dealing after writing a letter to the judge. She said she kept him in his 50k a year cushy job where she hired through nepotism because she didn’t know about the drugs offense, when in fact she did. Do you actually doubt it’s nepotism? If it wasn’t he’d easily get a 50k elsewhere and save her some embarrassment. And now she’s been exposed of lying is she sacking him? No…

And as for “owners of multiple homes and renting them all out with huge MP expenses”, she has a council property despite not being qualified to have one because her and her family earns too much, thus excluding those on waiting lists from a property. I’m sure she’d be the scamming the system more if she could.

You’re probably right that most of them are in for what they can get and taking the piss out of the system though. That has been evident.


#383

Once you get a council flat that can’t kick you out, because you earn x amount of money.