German NT Thread

Or, tbf, if you’re aware that that is historically one way in which racists have referred to black people.

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The people who complained did so because they are aware that there is a well established and sadly still too common stereotype that black people are somehow like monkeys. Mistakenly thinking that you’ve identified someone promoting that stereotype does not mean that the person making that mistake themself associates black people with monkeys.

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and it will continue to be referred like that if you keep reminding them of the use.

Racists be like, “oh I’d forgotten about that stereotype, thanks for reminding me leftie, I’m gonna start using it again!”

What world do you live in?

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The impact of any slur is lessen if you use it in general terms & dilute the usage.
Isolating it further amplifies the intent when used.

I live in the same world & I don’t agree with how it handles racism.

The current system is only designed to police racism, not remove it.

But don’t you realize part of getting rid of old stereotypes is not breathing energy into them. The reaction to the ad did more harm than good really

You should be able to innocently refer to a black child as a monkey because most kids regardless of colour behave like.

Exactly. The ad didn’t get traction because bunch of racists went ‘oh lol, look at this monkey admitting he is a monkey’
the whole fuss was created by everyone reminding everyone ‘hey guys the word monkey is racist to black guys. lets continue to make sure everyone know this & the word remains racist.’

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You are right. We are more fucked than Germany that has still big problems though.

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How about the post I actually made in response to you, any thoughts there?

I can honestly see where you’re coming from and I think your response is fair tbh but I think if you see the original clothes listing/ad and your very first thought to draw a historical negative association between black people and monkeys you’re either a racist or a highly sensitive individual.

I think 95% of the population see the ad and thinks nothing of it other than the two categories of people I mentioned above.

The issue with this particular case is that American social media got hold of the issue. As we know American society is even more divisive and contentious than ever before and the discussion of race is one of the battlegrounds. I think leftist activists will adopt a much harsher stance against something like this because of the environment they live in. The ad originated from Sweden, i’m not sure if the black people/ monkey thing is even historically relevant in their society

I think the reaction was misplaced really and did more harm than good for the people in the middle who just saw a kid in a top and nothing more

I mean, I’ll be honest and say that even as a massive leftie who could be accused of being too sensitive to things, I didn’t really get on board with that particular two day outpouring of outrage. It was done totally innocently (I’m pretty sure of that) and it is super common to refer to kids as cheeky little monkeys or some such thing, so I didn’t see much wrong with what they did.

However what I will say is that they could have done with a super sensitive leftie in that meeting because on a purely pragmatic level I absolutely would have been like, “um, some people might not react well to putting a little black kid in a t shirt that refers to him as a monkey. Maybe we just stick that tee on one of the white kids and put that nice stripey on him instead” :smile:

So I think we could be getting too bogged down with that example you chose, because in terms of the outrage generated, we’re broadly in agreement. What I disagree with is the “people who call out racism (mistakenly or otherwise) are the real racists” retory, cos I think that’s bullshit and you see that one trotted out pretty regularly online, so in a way I’m not just arguing with you two personally, it’s also a response to a wider argument.

I also don’t think that we’re exactly comparing like for like with these examples. With H&M we’re talking about any old organisation clumsily and accidentally stumbling into the grounds of an age old, offensive racial stereotype. In this thread we were initially talking about an organisation who has recently faced accusations of institutional racism appearing (to some) to utilise the image of an ethnic minority player in association with something negative, while (apparently) repeatedly favouring images of their Aryan poster boy when the message is a positive ones. They’re two very different cases and I don’t think the H&M furore is a helpful point of comparison when discussing whether the people making the accusations are “the true racists”.

I’m not even here condemning the German National Team/FA’s fucking twitter account but cause I literally have no opinion on the matter, its gonna take more evidence than that to convince me that there’s a nasty underlying message to a handful of tweets.

I’m just here disagreeing with Trion saying that being too sensitive and calling people out for racism when it isn’t warranted makes you a racist. It literally makes no sense unless you have some sort of bizarre, totally inaccurate notion of what the definition of the word racist is.

You know what??

My gut feeling tells me that, Low and Bierhoff intentionally to get some bad results so that they can make Ozil the savior and welcome him back.

That seems, at best, a fanciful idea.

Well… nobody can give any explanation on such a big defeat… not a bad time to day dream a bit…

Ever heard of Occam’s Razor? That hypothesis of yours doesn’t get past it.

well, good guess or not, it will tell soon…

If it is not gonna to happen, it will not.
If it is, I think it will be around the first few games of the Euro qualifiers.

Germany has been playing like crap for almost a year. They are just finished and need a new start.

Now I’m a little confused, because in the Chelsea thread you rubbished attempts to try and remove racism, and only seemed interested in punishing it.

They are two separate cases.
In Chelsea fans’ case, the individuals were guilty and should be punished. They knew what they were doing.

However in general, rectifying racism should involve allowing an environment where people can be genuine to each other without the fear of potentially offending each other or without the need to proactively spot racism in an activity.

They aren’t two separate cases. Chelsea fans who are racist live in the same society as the rest of us, they are part of the same “current system” that you say is only trying to police racism and not get rid of it. But when attempts are proposed to “remove” that racism through education you dismiss that and say it should just be policed. This is a clear example of your muddled, ill thought out views.