That’s your position and you’re entitled to it, but I disagree.
You can have a man with hormones out of line with what’s considered “normal”, does that mean they’re not a man? Or is it only about the genitals?
Are paralympic athletes singled out even though they compete in an event exclusively for them to show what they can do? Fitting you bought up Basketball. There’s a wheelchair version of that for people with physical impairment. I’m not sure your logic holds up.
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I know the point your making here and it started with the cycling article above.
I think you have to be beyond the winning aspect for a more integral look on this.
It’s about the right or not to compete and more of the fairness of the inclusion in female sport.
So for me as a dad of a 12 year old kid on the netball team at school, I’m going to be annoyed if a trans kid takes her place.
I also think you have to look at how a kid on the receiving end handles that.
Not the nicest word to use and I mean no offence by it but it’s an anomaly to have to deal with.
FWIW I asked my daughter about this awhile a go about it, and how she would feel about it.
She said she wasn’t sure but it was important that they got a chance to do sport.
Going forward I think another generation will have a different outlook on this and find a more acceptable solution for them.
Kids are educated in a different way now as each generation is and just adapt.
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There was a survey of female athletes in Australia maybe, who mostly didn’t care if trans athletes played with them. I think there was a trans footballer on Canada’s olympic team.
It’s supposed to be about inclusion, it’s supposed to be about teamwork and yeah, a lot of athletics is just a genetic lottery. I don’t think an uncoordinated bozo who takes hormones will suddenly become an amazing athlete. We know sports doesn’t really work like that.
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Yeah I can appreciate elements of that argument and don’t believe for a minute anybody is putting their body and emotions through this transition to compete in female sport.
I guess there’s also room in some kids sports that there’s no advantage.
I mean all kids have P.E lessons as a part of their education.
I think a reasonable debate like this one mainly has been tonight actually gives room for scope on outlook on this.
Was it anonymous? Because the fear of being labelled a transphobe is a real thing.
So it’s ok for men to win medals in women’s sport as long as they’re not sweeping gold medals at the Olympics.
I didn’t realise that was the criteria for cheating in sport.
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OK, so following your rules there’s no limits in place for transwomen until this happens.
What happens if/when there are a load of top level wins for transwomen, you’re still accepting of that?
Or at that point you change the rules and strip them of all their awards. That’s even worse than not letting them compete to me, having put in all that effort for no reward.
And if that day does come it won’t be because of a couple of exceptional transwomen, it will be because transwomen are competing throughout all levels of women’s sport.
If you take this attitude you’re just kicking the can down the road to the detriment of both trans and non-trans women.
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I agree that everyone has a right to participate in sport and and I admire your daughter for saying that everyone should get a chance.
But my original point was about the male cyclist, who is clearly swapping to female races to win medals and money because he is nowhere near good enough competing against other males.
My daughter does gymnastics at the same club as Max Whitlock and some of the young lads there are unbelievably strong so there’s no way that even the best female could compete with any of them, it wouldn’t even be close.
But if she or any of her friends missed out on a medal or an opportunity to qualify for a competition because a male gymnast had said he was female, I’m sure there would be a lot of unhappy parents.
On the subject of Austin Killips. Do you genuinely think this is OK? You can’t see why women should have a problem with this?
“Austin is cycling’s equivalent of Lia Thomas,” Inga Thompson, a three-time US Olympian and five-time national road race champion, told The Telegraph. Thomas won a US women’s collegiate title in swimming last year in the 200-yard freestyle, having been ranked 554th in the country in the equivalent male category.
“This really highlights the issues that are happening to women in cycling,” Thompson said. “We have more than 50 transgender women in the sport. And what’s going on in the background is that women are just quietly walking away. They think, ‘Why bother, if it’s not fair?’”
Killips’ name first came to wider attention in March, after being cited by former cyclo-cross champion Hannah Arensman in a Supreme Court filing explaining why she was retiring from the sport at 24. Arensman had lost out on a podium place to Killips in the national finals in December, later accusing her transgender opponent of repeatedly shoving her during the race – a claim Killips denied.
“I have decided to end my cycling career,” Arensman said. “My sister and family sobbed as they watched a man finish in front of me, having witnessed several physical interactions with him during the race. I feel for young girls learning to compete, who no longer have a fair chance at being the new record-holders and champions in cycling because men want to compete in our division.”
And just to add, there are plenty of studies from the likes of the British Journal of Sports Medicine who say that trans women are stronger and maintain better heart and lung capacity than women even 10 to 15 years after taking hormone therapy.
But hey, we should just be fine with a trans woman with an unfair advantage taking up the sport recently and cruising to first place and winning £30,000 in prize money. It’s only women’s sport, who cares about silly women, we should just let anyone join in in the spirit of inclusivity.
Be interesting if Austin Killips does make the Olympics.
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Is it? We got tons of politicians here who revel in it.
Absolutely agree with most of the post, but to be fair to @Joshua I don’t think this bit is forming part of his argument/logic
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Yes, I believe it is.
As for politicians, they’d revel in anything that they thought would garner more votes.
Last time we had this debate I said that if you want to change your sex and go through surgery, maybe you just have to accept that your elite sport days are over? Unless there’s a class for trans women it would be so unfair against other women. I still stand by this.
There are stories about trans men doing good though. Louise Sand earned 105 caps for Sweden and was one of the worlds best handball players. She became Loui by going through surgery and is now playing in a men’s team. Not in the top division but the division under it.
But this seems more accepted and “fair” because she’s a trans man and hasn’t become better cos of the sex change. Should it be? Idk.
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What on earth is there to disagree with?
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Your position, if I understand it correctly, is that if you have a penis, you’re a man and nothing can change that, right? So it boils down to the genitals determining what you are.
I don’t think it’s that simple. There’s still so much we don’t understand about ourselves, our brains, how we form our identities that go beyond having certain genitals. And I think the idea of what is a man or a woman has changed throughout history, and through cultural lenses.
So, again, you’re entitled to that stance but I think it’s more complicated than that.
I think the cycling body that runs that races has rules in place about testosterone levels and that cyclist met those rules.
I think some of the quotes in the article referring to a trans woman cyclist as a man are really shitty and convey either a misunderstanding of transpeople or a deliberate attempt to be hurtful.
And I have never said that it’s a question of women’s sports mattering less. This conversation almost always tilts towards women’s sports because there’s a belief that transwomen maintain a huge advantage over ciswomen and/or are dominating sports in a way that is both not necessarily true and not really a concern for people about transmen competing against cismen because there’s an assumption the transmen athletes are at a natural disadvantage.
Way to drag out that strawman and beat the fuck out of it.
It doesn’t seem like he has gotten any advantage from his change. And that seems the main concern of transwomen competing with biological females.
The topic of this conversation is just about having a penis though it’s got nothing else to do what you have said.
It’s the obvious difference between a man and a woman physically, and the topic of conversation is about a physical sport.