It’s not just a lack of goals though is it
It’s essentially being a black hole when it comes to facilitation and creativity also.
So deep down Arteta would be thinking yeah I’ve brought him in to win duels, defend set pieces and press?
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What is his main task?
So it’s not scoring or assisting.
Is it creating from deep? He’s not doing that.
Is it being a shield as six? Rice or Jorginho do that.
He runs around a lot but that’s basically it. We’re down to grasping at “oh well he stood in the right place” which is not what you want from a guy brought in at a big price to replace someone who started every single match.
No hate to the guy but it’s looking like the wrong player at the wrong price.
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As of right now Xhaka is the better of the two offensively. Havertz have better recovery pace, but thats about it.
Its not looking good, but its not the end of the world if it goes tits up. He has some resale value compared to the likes of Pepe and Ozil.
It’s not? It’s another Pepe imo. We can’t afford to miss completely on a signing at that price.
If you were to ask 100 Gooners to choose two starters to drop from Arteta’s strongest 11, well over 80% would say Havertz and Raya - facts. Zinchenko would be a distant third.
Havertz is barely doing enough to be a starter nevermind an integral member of the team.
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Imagine being in a quiz and being asked:
What is Havertz, the Chelsea and Arsenal footballer, actually good at?
Strangest thing is that I think Havertz has a lot of ability. Must just be a pussy with a weak mind. He has the tools to be brilliant.
He should be to German football what Musiala has become.
I’m just a guy on the internet with an opinion, and my opinion is that he didn’t do great, but rather… ok. My guess is that first of all he is not part of the front three, whose main tasks include scoring. He is a midfielder. But: we play the type of ball where we slowly overload if they defend low, so we start to +1 centrally with midfielders, and we want them to contribute with goals on top of everything else they do. This is one of the benefits of playing this 4-3-3 overload style, you want goals from your midfielders as well… so to reconcile this: my shit take is something like this:
If we compare him to the rest of the midfielders we have, Ödegård is a genius at his role because he has the work rate of a thousand lions on top of his stellar attacking contribution, Rice is an absolute blessing, probably the best signing in the entire PL so far this season regardless of the £105m tag. A fit Partey is great at turning and passing forward into space, as well as clever positioning to avoid our CBs ending up in shitty situations on counter attacks, but he has 5 goals in 100+ apps. Still, these guys are absolutely stellar at what they do, brilliant.
We know that when Artetaball kicked off, Martinelli and Saka were destroying on the wings, and as teams got wiser they started to double up on them. We counter that by having good attacking full backs who +1 far up the pitch, and we let midfielders drift up centrally to add more passing options, nothing ground breaking.
I think Havertz’ role as a new guy in this setup is to mostly enable the wide guy (Martinelli or Saka) by just being a traffic cone up there, specifically: mostly keeping it simple and let others do the initial work, drift around, offer an alternative, not moving too far up too quickly because he has defensive responsibilities in pressing and tracking back if we lose the ball, so he needs to be measured, and that’s one of the things I think he does well.
Then if we build up pressure we start to add midfielders centrally in front of the box to try and pick their locks. Ödegård excels at this, few players in the world can do what he does and still work in defense like he does. In contrast, my guess is we want Havertz as far up as possible, up next to their CBs because of his height, rather than outside the box to play tiki-taka like Ödegård would.
Here’s where there is room for improvement, we see him winning headers there but he heads the ball the wrong way, we see him offer a passing alternative but not weigh the pass back properly etc. And if you do that on top of having that measured keep it simple role with a relative defensive responsibility and being shy to pull the trigger, it looks pretty stale and pointless. I want more in this department, just like you guys.
But tl:dr; I think his job is to keep it simple, not move up front too quickly, enable his wide guy initially and offer way out / a passing option, keep defense at the back of his head at all times, track back and press when we lose the ball or +1 after we’ve established pressure, dig in further up front than for example Ödegård or Rice with his height and ability to hold the ball, and from there drop if off to someone else or score.
And imo he gets into all those positions well. He is just not passing or finishing well when push comes to shove in that critical moment imo, and I want that to keep gradually improving.
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I mean, Citeh have Jack Grealish riding the bench. Some games he even spend the full game getting a sore ass from sitting on the bench. 100m player and 5 goals a season contributor.
Getting the Havertz deal wrong is disgustingly shite, dont get me wrong. But he is not the first player in history to be a bit part player for that kind of money.
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If he was actually able to be more impactful would that be his role? Or are you talking about keeping it simple being he’s not showing the capability to be a decisive player in this team? Was he brought in to do that or is it a result of what his limitations are.
Because it seems like now that he clearly isn’t at the requisite level his role is being dumbed down or reduced rather to accommodate the fact he doesn’t look up to it, when he plays it means that even more of a burden is placed on the rest of the midfield and outfielders to produce.
Personally I think this is a great take and whilst we and I am certain Arteta want more, I think Havertz is learning the role Arteta expecta and that is why he keeps making the lineup.
The aim this season is not to blow teams away, Arteta is looking to almost grind out results whilst maintaining control of the game. Last season we came out flat out and scored a lot of goals in first 15, this season is more controlled.
Havertz needs to and is capable of contributing more, and it feels to me that overall he is improving as we get through games. I think his time will come.
At the games, the fans are willing him on still and it doesnt feel like they are nearly as critical as the sentiment on OA.
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Yeah exactly. I think Arteta is happy with his work rate and his positioning, my guess is he feels he understands the tasks he’s given, just long term he wants more end product. Just like us. Which is why I’m ok with this whole business so far.
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Yeah, this is definitely the case. At the game on Wednesday there was a definite feeling that the crowd just wanted something to happen for him. I was behind the goal when he missed that header at the start, nobody was shouting abuse or getting on his back like you see online.
I think every club has the worst elements of its supporters online, but with Arsenal having such a large online following it’s particularly magnified and OA reflects this too.
In general one of my least favourite things about being an Arsenal fan has always been other Arsenal fans. It’s a fanbase where scapegoating, bullying and entitlement are common and there’s always a player like Havertz, or Xhaka, or Holding who a large section like to pile on and make out they’re the worst players ever to play the games. It’s always been there, and it’s always been vile.
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You talk plenty of shit about ESR, your holier than thou shtick is laughable
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Yeah the idea match going fans are naturally imbued with patience or humility when it comes to backing/supporting players is nonsense too. Very annoying talking point
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Except I don’t pile on every day of every season. I don’t like him, either as a player or in terms of what he publicly shares about himself and I’d like him to leave.
What I don’t do is dissect everything he does or doesn’t do in public and shout down anyone who says anything positive about him.
I believe my responses to you are very formed by the way Fabio Vieira entered your stable of Arsenal players you shit on on a regular basis.
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However in this case it’s definitely appropriate to discuss. Because in the ground there’s a marked difference in how Havertz is treated. It’s not always so, other players have been treated badly by match going fans like Xhaka and Eboue.
You also sometimes see online fans complaining when live crowds don’t act in a way that reflects what they see online. So it’s not like this discussion goes only one way.
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More hyperbole
Who is dissecting everything he does or doesn’t do in public and shouting down anything positive?
Stable of Arsenal players I shit on? Now you’re just making stuff up.
That’s just match day etiquette imo.
@oompa I see what you’re saying but did we need a 65m traffic cone? I’m not so sure.
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This. None of us would go to a match and abuse our own players even when they’re failing to perform.
But in an online forum where they can’t/won’t see it, we can express ourselves fully.
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