Cristiano Ronaldo

For me this would count towards “who had a better career?” rather than an argument for “being better at football”

I covered this in my post. To win it, you need to go right to the end, final 4 at 22 WC was Argentina, Morocco, Croatia, France. Euro 16 was France, Portugal, Wales. Germany. Not much of a difference there really. Tournament football is always a bit about luck and timing.

I don’t even value it that highly anyway overall with respect to judging a player’s career. You only get a few shots and it’s easy enough to never win anything at that level. It was more a point that I don’t really think Messi’s WC is hugely different to Ronaldo winning a Euros.

And as I said, for some it is, but whatever, that’s their view and I have mine.

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How do you clearly divide the two? Why isn’t a kid who regularly scores 5 goals a game and creates 3 more in his sunday league not in the conversation then? Surely there is a need to have demonstrated football ability on a requisite level?

WC will soon have 2 teams qualifying from groups of 3 :eyes:

If our focus is on actual footballing ability, then we have to separate the two.
The involvement in multiple leagues, WC, Euros, Copa Americas is a privilege that not every footballer will be born into. It works well for Messi & Ronaldo because for most parts, the club & country they are associated with are linked with best of the competitions.

However, It becomes so unfair if the next best player comes from some obscure country in Asia.

Look at Haaland vs Mbappe, Mbappe is backed by French NT to win the WC & Euros. Haaland doesn’t have those resources.

For years, people kept saying that Messi needed to win the WC to become the best ever but what if Messi was born in Cambodia/India that never qualifies for a WC?
What if the next best player is bought & signed by Chelsea on 15 year long contract and is never allowed to move to a different league?

It’s not a good metric.
And even if it were, Messi won 2 Ligue 1 trophies while playing for PSG. So it isn’t exactly that great of an argument anyway.

Okay. So how do you judge footballing ability?

Well you can’t because adapting to different setups and tactical approaches is also ‘footballing ability’ (IQ).

Let’s face it you just want to say Messi is more silky and plays a more attractive style. Don’t need all the extremes about Cambodian Pele.

No Messi is simply better than Ronaldo in more or less every skillset bar headers.

Better passer
Better dribbler
Better playmaker
Better at freekicks
as good of a goalscorer

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How do you know this?

Well you have eye test but surely even the numbers would suggest that.

For example, key passes

Blue is Messi, Red is Ronaldo

But my mate who plays sunday league has better stats and the eye test shows he destroyed everyone on that pitch, every time he played. Surely he’s better than Messi then?

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Numbers that are hugely benefitted by playing in a dominating and safe Barca setup for most of his career, before being forced to leave and win garbage titles in France.

You’re right with better passer and playmaker :+1:

Is the eye test confirmed by more than 2 people?

If you agree with this, then surely a player that can add to what Ronaldo already provides is better than Ronaldo right?

Yip.

What’s his name? I will check him out

Doesn’t matter what his name is. Explain why he’s not better than Messi. He scores 5 goals every game and creates 3 more as well. Why is Messo better? My mate has better stats, the eye test is better, so what would make Messi better?

Maybe he is better.
I can only attest to differences between Messi & Ronaldo because I have watched them multiple times over the decade to be sure about my assertion of who is better.
I will watch your mate for atleast 30 matches to give my verdict.

Anyway, to compare the footballing abilities - Ronaldo & Messi spent their peak years in same league with similarly powerful teams. It’s pretty level playing field so I really don’t understand the need to add more parameters.

How did those two players display individual capabilities should be enough to make a comparison.

You are obviously being purposefully evasive because you are now aware that the level at which the player plays and performs at is relevant. The ability to perform well in different high-level environments is a reflection of their ability as a footballer.

You can’t simply separate one from another otherwise it is perfectly valid to say that some park footballer is better than the game’s best. Any logical observer would agree the park footballer is playing in an easier environment so executing skills is less difficult.