UK shouldn’t get too cocky into thinking there isn’t problems here too. Brexit might of dominated the media space for the last 4 years, but it wasn’t long ago knife crime and black on black crime in London was a nice past time to mock us with. Not to mention through the last decade the severe youth service cuts we experienced that we used to try tackle with the damn thing in the first place while taking the full brunt of the blame from society demanding us to fix our own problems. Give me a break.
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My entire friendship circle are people from ethnic backgrounds. I don’t have any white friends (actually, I have one) so I’m really not used to interacting with people that share the kinds of opinions some people on this forum do. I guess because I grew in environments where I witnessed racism first hand both aimed at me (not even close to as much as my friends) and more specifically my closest friends (who virtually all happen to be black).
I grew up and first hand I’ve seen and witnessed racism from Metropolitan police, unnecessary police force. I’ve had a friends die in police custody. I’ve also had another friend die whilst being restrained by the police (he allegedly had a heart attack, but he was complaining to the police beforehand about being short of breath but they didn’t listen and all the body cams were off). I’ve seen my friends with good jobs driving nice cars get stopped with their only crime being that they’re black. I’ve gone out to clubs with my friends and had to split up into groups of 2s so that we hopefully can get in whilst groups of 6 or so white guys just stroll in without any problems. I’ve seen institutional racism at work with amazing ethnic candidates passed over for roles they clearly deserved to get for the most bullshit reasons. I’ve had to forego flying to certain countries with my friends because they’re genuinely worried about the racism in the country they fly to.
You’re 10 times more likely to be stopped by police as a black man in the UK. 58% more likely to be unemployed in the UK as a BAME, black women are five times more likely to die from pregnancy. You’re 3 times more likely to be arrested if you’re black than white.
That’s why I get my back up about the attitudes of some people. Because some people on this forum feed into the nonsense I seem to read from a lot of white people about racism. It’s the denial of some, the ignorance of others. It’s something the vast majority of forum users will go an entire lifetime without experiencing so to hear some people talk on the topic as if they have a clue what they’re talking about can be frustrating.
I think I’m going to take myself away from this thread because it largely impacts how I feel about some people on the forum who I otherwise had a lot of respect for.
I have a lot of love for the people of OA because I’ve been posting on this forum since I was a kid in the early secondary school years. I’m less than a year off being 30 now so this place has been a constant for me for close to 16 years now.
But I can’t sit back and read people constantly trying to pick at everything that the BLM movement does. There’s little in the way of empathy or constructive discussion it feels like every move is dissected and broken down for criticism. I guess that’s just how it’s going to be because for some people, this will never truly be something they care about and others take it as an attack against white people (which it isn’t, it’s just a fight for equality).
By and large I like to consider myself a reasonable poster and a reasonable man. But this topic makes me feel emotive and that’s just not how I want to be on this forum. I treat OA as a great place to enjoy good posts, talk football with like minded people and sometimes have the most random and nonsense discussions ever. I love this place and I wouldn’t change most of you guys for the world.
But I’m X’ing out of this topic once and for all. So if anybody chooses to reply to anything I’ve said - peace be with you but not this time.
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I think there is something unedifying about these protesters taking on the british police, though.
The Met are still recovering from the unlawful killing of Jean Charles De Menesez over a mistaken identity. In USA, there’s a De Menesez every other day (white, black, Hispanic, asian, etc)
In that respect, the two police forces are a world apart both in terms of geography and ideology.
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In 2011 during the last riots in this country the government and media absolutely dominated the narrative. Looting was all they showed and they tried to suppress any voice representing minorities
Nearly ten years on and I’ve still never forgotten this interview that showed the BBC up for exactly what it is.
This time, it seems, the narrative isn’t so easy to own.
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These demonstrations are complete madness.
There is a pandemic out there. Which affects black people and other minorities more than others.
I get the rage, but come on.
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David I absolutely appreciate that they are not the same. But it doesn’t make it satisfactory.
This ‘we’re different’ while is completely factual seems a little bit arrogant and complacent. Which was the point of my original post. We can all talk about the U.S because their standards are so below the floor its laughable. Talking about the our own country seems to be tougher however.
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I liked what Gary Linekar said on Twitter about the hypocrisy of all sides on this. Those attacking the beach goers and the park sunbathers as murderers are now cheering on a mass protest as just fine, meanwhile those who said that beach goers etc. was nothing to worry about are now throwing their toys out the pram because of an anti-racist protest. You could also say the same thing about the way people regard the nature of protest and the police. Those outraged now at say police on horse-back never said a dicky bird about the brutality of French police against Giletes Jauns or the Chinese against the people of Hong Kong, and those who were outraged about Gilete Jauns don’t give a fuck about racist cops in America. You’ve got people like Anthony Joshua telling black people to basically segregate, and white people apologising for their skin colour, protesters in Minneapolis booing a mayor for not wanting to defund the police, and Brits bizarrely thinking that our police are a wing of the U.S, and others out there who think there is no racism in the UK at all. Think we are a bit through the looking glass on this one.
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Mad that it lasted so long in the first place
I don’t mourn the loss of a slave trade cunt, but I’m not fond of this. It’s mob rule. I know the types of people out doing this, and they won’t want to stop with a slave trader. Why are the police just letting them pull down statues. It’s all a bit Little Red Guard. Protest the council to pull it down by consent, not a mob in the street. This isn’t the fall of the Third Reich or the end of Mussolini’s Italy, we’re in a democratic country with the rule of law.
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It’s a bit like the Iraqis taking down Saddam’s statue…only, not
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Yeah as a historian I’m not a fan of this. Like it or not he was a fundamental part of Bristols history and why it’s such a prosperous city today - embrace it, challenge it, critique it, reflect on it and then move on.
You can’t try and rewrite history like this, it’s just not right and it’s disingenuous.
That its existence hasn’t been successfully challenged through the legitimate channels speaks to the poor general standard of education on the crimes of the empire in this country.
I say as a History teacher.
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Who is re-writing history? Statues are often erected in adoration or reverance for certain people. It’s not so hard to understand that people have a problem with that? Without denying that he was a part of Bristol/UK history.
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I tend to broadly agree with you on the topic, I think it’s ignorant to judge the past with modern day morality but if the constituents of Bristol City no longer wish to venerate/memorialise Edward Colston in a public space with a statue, that’s their prerogative as a community.
Did those protesters have a mandate to pull it down? No, so I agree arbitrarily pulling it down is not the proper way of going about things
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Censoring History often has the opposite effect to that which those doing the censoring intend.
Removing discussion and debate of ideas which society has learned are unacceptable means that the reasons that they are unacceptable pass out of collective knowledge as well.
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Not that I agree with vandalism, mind
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The fact that that’s true really should lead to a re-evaluation of how we teach about the Empire and its crimes.
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Get in the sea, literally
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Yeah it’s tricky. I was saying to a friend that I bet a lot of the people out protesting were also people railing against the government for not doing enough about COVID. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. And that comes back round to a good point that a POC friend of mine made.
She grew up in Indiana as a young black girl, so she’s seen some shit. She was telling my girlfriend and I the other day that she doesn’t blame white people who haven’t been out actively supporting the BLM movement on social media, simply because they don’t know who’s going to attack them.
80% of my entire social media feed for the last week has been nothing but people “educating” me on how I should and shouldn’t support the movement, except a lot of it has been very conflicting.
White people need to take a step back and let black people use their voice to effect this change. White peoples voices have been too loud and oppressive over the years and we need to let Black people take the stage now!
or
White people have the strongest voice and platform and need to support Black people in this movement by being loud and proud in their support of them!!
I’ve seen posts suggesting that if you do either or, you’re wrong. Either you’re infantilising the black population and removing their agency by virtue of just being white or you’re a cunt for not coming out and properly supporting an oppressed minority.
Which one is it? Fucking hell, damned if you do damned if you don’t.
So I just don’t say anything. I quietly donated to the cause with my girlfriend and will keep on treating people of all colours and genders with respect and kindness. I won’t be changing my profile picture, I won’t be “blacking out” my feed (of which there was a lot of support and opposition at the same time which I thought was funny), I’m just going to carry on posting pictures of the countryside and my dog.
I am bit tired of all my middle class white friends lecturing at me on social media though, it all just reeks of virtue signalling and slacktivism.
A good British Indian friend of mine made an interesting post though. He said that he thought there was WAY too much emphasis on white racism, and that he had experienced more racism towards black people from his Asian friends and family than white people and that his Asian community really needed to take a look at itself in the mirror before jumping on the backs of white people. Was quite poignant really.
In any case I’ve always supported the BLM movement, and I thought the right way forward for them was to continue destroying government property. What upset me was seeing the small independent local businesses in poor black neighbourhoods getting ransacked. Like, if you’re trying to make a point against your rich white oppressors why don’t you go and loot businesses in the rich white neighbourhoods? Surely that would make much more of an effective point.
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