Arsenal dont (and didn’t) have a plug and go squad. More time than normal is expected because we are literally are doing a full squad revamp built with young players who arnt even physically built out yet let alone reaching anything like their true talent level.
You can’t view it through the same lense as a tuchel or a conte at Chelsea or Spurs where the group they are taking over it’s clear there is a core you can build around which has world class aspects already.
The task for conte is how do we get the most out of Kane and Son and stop conceding goals. A few tactical tweaks and a couple good additions is enough.
Tuchel at Chelsea your starting with Jorginho and Kante in midfield. Some top class attacking players and defensive players. The reality is they were underperforming under Lampard.
I expect pundits to just with no thought say oh they didn’t finish top 4 yet after a couple seasons it’s not working. But it barely even scratches the surface of what is actually happening imo.
My post was aimed at Phoebica, but I’d be interested in your answer to my question at the end of the post. Lets get some sort of timeframe on this, when can we start expecting tangible achievements like CL finishes, and criticise our manager for not achieving them? Just trying to get a sense of whether people will be saying the same stuff in a year’s time if were still not making top four.
Well I was comparing Conte after 6 months with Arteta after 2.5 years, I wasnt measuring Conte’s progress next to Arteta’s initial six months. So I think it’s implicit in my post that I understand that more time is needed for Arteta. I’m just trying to get a sense of how much time that is, if 2.5 isn’t it.
When you don’t see much value addition from Arteta.
Right now, he is able to consolidate our defence in a way that makes it difficult to score against us. Arteta is able to - forge good chemistry between players, identify the right talents and maximise the output of these players while playing good football.
When it starts feeling like the value addition is not proportionate to the requirement of the clubs & the talents in hand; we can start thinking of moving him on.
Right now, Arteta has put a lot of things in the right place for us to reset it all.
I am ready to forget two awful seasons because this season gives me hope that our manager and club as whole are giving me impression that they know what they are doing, and that wasn’t the case for at least 7 years, if not longer.
And like many others I wasn’t happy with transfers last summer.
So edging towards 5 seasons on total before we necessarily expect anything in terms of league position. Can’t say I necessarily agree but good to get a picture.
If we don’t add any context to it, yes it looks bad.
But we have to consider the squad rehaul, change in management and implications of Covid. It took a season and a half to fix half those issues and we still need one more window to bring other pieces of the squad to really pin the shortcomings of Arteta as a manager.
Right now, do we really know if the lack of achievement is down to the manager or due to lack of quality?
This season nobody thought we’d have a chance of top4. Arsenal fan, opposition fan or pundit.
We are performing above expectations and playing well. As Phoebica said if we continue our upward trajectory I wouldn’t change anything.
The situation is always fluid, things can change fast. Instead of giving an arbitrary number for how long is enough time then saying enough is enough because of that time limit, I will just continue to make my judgements based on what we are seeing on the pitch.
Is that a good reference point?
Edu & Arteta had more than enough time to make sure we had the squad to finish in the Top 4. We don’t have any European football so why was it that we had no chance.
I think it’s also worth remembering that Arteta is basically managerial version of Saka.
Yes he’s had 2.5 years here but he’s still very young and inexperienced for a manager. Comparing him to Conte with 15 years of management experience and Son+Kane duo is unfair.
Saying Arteta has had 2 years to get us top 4 is like saying Saka has had 2 years to become PL top scorer.
This is his first management gig, there’s always going to be a learning curve for him.
That would be my response to your opening sentences.
I’m not asking you for a fixed number which you’ll be bound to stick to no matter what, I’m just trying to get a sense from some of you as to when we might be able to expect things like a top four finish or rather, when you’ll start judging Arteta for not achieving it, given that you’re telling me that time is absolutely not now.
You don’t have to supply a number or any sort of answer if you can’t or don’t want to, but I’m not exactly asking an unreasonable question in trying to get a ballpark figure here.
He’ll be compared to his competition, simple as. Whether you like it or not, managers like Conte are who he is competing against, fair doesn’t come into it, that’s just the reality of the situation.
Yes, of course, and the question is how long can we expect that learning curve to last if not 2.5 seasons?
Well we as fans can expect a top 4 finish from this point now considering our position, it would be immensely disappointing to drop out from here, even if there is a large possibility of it happening. And for next year the target has to also be top4 and if we don’t build upon this year considering the trajectory of 90% of our players than there’s a good chance something has gone badly wrong and needs addressing.
So yeah anything other than top4 next year would also be disappointing Im not sitting here saying we can expect to finish 5th forever.
I just think considering our trajectory, the age of our players, the way we (currently) play there is a lot of leeway in what it would take before we fire arteta.
Absolutely respect you, Cristo and Phoebica (edit: Trion too, I guess, lel) in what you’re saying. I have been disagreeing/challenging some of what you’ve all been saying, but its definitely come from the perspective of wanting to hear more from each of you, not purely in an antagonistic way cos I wanna have an argument about it lol.
I’m still optimistic about top four and it’s very much in our hands, so this convo is premature, if still interesting.
Yeah that’s fine but I’m going to have patience with him and give him the benefit of the doubt and I’ll argue for that as well.
People can compare him to Conte all they want but I still feel that’s unreasonable, but like I said that’s the sport.
I’m happy to give him 3-4 seasons. If he doesn’t build on this season and show us something special next season then I think we’re within our rights to sack him and say we gave him a good chance.
If that is the case, why did the club give him a three and a half year deal, rather than a five or six year deal?
Presumably thats because they intended to judge how good a job he had done after 3 or so years, and assess whether they wanted to keep him in the job. I’d say that means that as fans its appropriate to start considering this question around about now, as he is about to enter the final year of his deal. Presumably thats the clubs intention too, otherwise theyd have just given him a six year deal and resolved not to revisit the matter til his deal was almost up?
Because we had no idea if he was going to be an absolute disaster? This was his first gig. You need a good amount of time before something can be fully realised. But you dont need that amount of time to see if it is achievable with the manager.
There are still minimum expectations which need to be met even if it is a longer term project.
As long as our board don’t see it like this and recognise the progress Arteta is making, then that’s main thing. Fans, pundits, whatever can think what they want.
Facts are this is first time in years we’ve had a real group of players and a manager who believe they can achieve great things, and have gone a long way to repairing the relationship with the fans.
2.5 years is a long time as a manager in the modern game. We’ve seen plenty who achieve pretty much instant success so the 8th place finish last season was very disappointing.
But I think Arsenal’s starting point was so low when Arteta took charge, the squad mentality so weak and the atmosphere at the club so toxic that it was always going to take longer to get us back on track.
As @Gunnerpr said, no pundits predicted us to finish fourth and only the most optimistic of fans genuinely thought we’d do it this season.
4th place is completely in our hands now so it would be devastating to fuck it up at this stage.
The key is that there is something building here. We can all feel it, that it’s a new era with a completely different ethos. Managers like Conte come in and do great things then leave shortly after. Arteta is a student of Pep - he’s trying to build a dynasty from the bottom up. Our objective hasn’t been just to get top 4, it’s been to get Arsenal back to where it should be on many levels - professionalism, expectation, mentality, fan engagement. The standards of the club fell hugely in the past 5+ years and his job was not only to oversee improvement on the pitch, but to rebuild this whole bastard club.
And this season he is exceeding the top 4 objective and meeting the club rebuild objective.