It’s from listening to these very videos that I learnt more about minimum wage.
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Valid response - The economic model isn’t the issue here there are wider factors at play. Why is it cheaper to live in Oklahoma compared to CA? There’s a lower tax burden on individuals and business at the state level, there are fewer regulations on business and there’s a surplus of housing all these elements lead to cheaper good and services, generally a lower cost of living expense.
When left wing policies directly contributes to a higher cost of living what do you call that then?
I subscribe to the school of hard truths, and what you’ve described here sounds like the personal failings of an individual. Working full time on minimum wage is poor optimization of your time and labour.
I agree, a business exists to create profit and part of that is minimising expenses where possible. I’m not against a minimum wage, I want there to be a healthy and balanced job market where you can find opportunities that meet your needs. It’s important to me people are well paid generally as I think it leads to better customer service which has declined in the west.
What I’m against is politicians pursuing bad regressive policy based on flawed emotional ideals. Government distortion of the free market rarely ever leads to intended outcomes. Something like minimum wage can be increased naturally and organically without direct government intervention but that’s the longer and hard path.
No I don’t but I’m not against a nationwide level of minimum wage. The UK is geared towards a consumers market and a lot of our economic policy is reflective of that.
My equity and justice point wasn’t specific to minium wage
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I haven’t chimed in on this subject because I’m not an expert on minimum wage and I suspect from what I’ve read thus far no one else here is either. The way you describe the differences between Oklahoma and California is extremely linear and your final conclusion regarding the failure of “left wing policies” makes no sense. Based on your own logic Oklahoma should be the most populous state with the 5th largest economy in the world…not an impoverished wasteland with massive unemployment, food deserts, amphetamine addiction etc, etc.
As often with these contentious issues allot of people only understand them in a vacuum and argue what hypothetical scenario would result if we apply this or that policy.
Glad to see Putin let @mhappy out of the cyber warrior gulag.
You need to stay off Twitter, I think it’s making you deranged.
Yeah definitely, honestly Sowell is one of if not the greatest economist of the last century in my opinion. Should give his books a read (if you haven’t already) written very well and very eye opening.
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I think this is fair enough, I only having the discussion in general terms so yes I’m being reductive and broad.
I didn’t offer any final conclusion on the topic. We know the cost of living is extremely high in CA already and the result of that isn’t because of a “right wing economic model” considering the political control left leaning democrats have in the state
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My brother has few, definitely need to get a few more.
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Which is funny because a lot of people are moving from CA to Texas which has always been a predominantly right leaning state.
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Someone has to do these jobs, not everyone can upskill and just go and get a better job that pays better, there isn’t an inexhaustible pool of better jobs people can go out and get.
If your view is that people struggle to get by as a result of personal failure then of course there’s no incentive for you to back any sort of measure that introduces or moves towards economic or social justice, because if its about personal failure then there is no injustice or issue that needs addressing. So coming from that perspective, it does make sense you wouldn’t be in favour of policies designed to address this.
I guess we just have a fundamental difference of opinion. You seem to look at the most disadvantaged, who may rely on universal credit (so us, the taxpayer, subsidising wages because companies don’t pay enough out of choice) and food banks (charity that exists because people don’t have enough money to provide for themselves and their families in Tory Britain) to get by despite being in full time employment, and ascribe their problems to personal failure. I look at someone who can’t afford to live despite working full time, or even longer hours, and I think that something about the system is broken. Or instead of trying to ensure they’re paid a fair wage, we could continue to pick up the bill for corporations with things like universal credit, and the gap between wages and the cost of living can be footed by us instead of the people profiting from underpaying people.
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It’s not but it really depends on what kind of person we’re talking about here. My general opinion on this is if we’re talking about someone of sound health and mind, with a GCSE level education and no dependants then there’s really no excuses regardless of your starting point in life.
I’m not talking about people who don’t fall into that category.
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If we want to talk about taking responsibility and self reliance then let’s also discuss the viability of businesses that claim to not be able to afford to pay a decent wage to staff. Wages are part of operating costs, if a business cant afford its operating costs then it isn’t truly viable. Yet the current model allows businesses to eschew the responsibility of being viable and leaves the taxpayer to make up the difference.
Its amazing that the narrative around the welfare state is about subsidising individuals when the reality is that most of the country’s welfare bill is subsidising organisations who don’t pay some of their staff enough, they’re the true recipients of welfare here.
(The above is a general comment on the topic and not aimed at you specifically Sev)
You might not be, but those people are a part of the discussion.
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Question: Does the UK have unpaid internships/apprenticeships?
Fair - But that’s a different discussion which I think is reflective of society as a whole rather than just economic policy. I’ve always believed we’re currently experiencing cultural/moral decline in the west particularly in the family unit and local community.
I always look at the performance of economic migrant communities in the UK from developing nations who bring with them far stronger cultural norms, practices and institutions which has enabled them to thrive in comparison to the native populace here in the UK.
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Yes
This is a fantastic video that shows how the Nordic system works so well with such high wages for low skilled employees, and now the unions negotiate a pay rise or pay decrease in tune with Norway’s exports.
Not quite smart enough to understand it all but it’s super interesting.
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Don’t think they are unpaid but they get very little money, I think the government gives my company 30 quid a day for my apprentices, but if they’re good I give them alot more.
The current or upcoming generation is well equipped to work towards better employment to some extent.
We have remote working so opportunities are more compared to previous, education now is very much free because of the internet (or at least you don’t have to pay a lot or leave your home), and for the brave, getting into a startup is a lot more streamlined than before.
Unless someone is mentally or physically hindered, If someone is capable of working full time, he is capable of bettering his life.
Would you still feel system is broken even though system is providing more than enough platform for capable individuals to better themselves?
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People have to do these sorts of jobs. For society to function someone needs to fill those roles, not everyone can “better themselves” and find better opportunities, there isn’t an infinite number of “good jobs”.
As long as society requires people to do these kinds of jobs I’ll continue to think that the people doing these jobs full time should earn enough money to get by. Currently that is not the case, as evidenced by the state subsidising businesses by topping up insufficient wages paid my employers so people can make rent and feed and clothe themselves and their families.
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In California’s case, a minimum wage isn’t going to hurt these greedy companies you talk about, it’s only going to make them automate their workforce faster which will cause a loss of unskilled laborers jobs. Costco, Amazon, Walmart all have enough money and market share to dump workers and invest in technology to replace them. The only thing that raising the minimum wage is gonna do, is hurt the small business owners, who have small margins to make their businesses work. Just another way they can muscle competition out of the way.
As an example of these greedy businesses Uber/Lyft just lobbied the state of California to introduce a bill to make these drivers independent contractors so they don’t have to obey the states laws regarding workers lmao, and then they ran a misinformation campaign and got all the idiots in the state to vote on it. Now they operate in the state without having to even pay a minimum wage or offer medical insurance to their workers. The greedy companies have different rules from the rest of us who are our here trying to make a living.
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He’s making a broad assumption that unskilled employees ‘only contribute $4 an hour’. Does he have any basis for this? He’s also making the assumption black people in America have higher unemployment because the minimum wage is too high. But is it that or other factors such as self employment?
Let’s look at his first example and see if this is true on a basic unskilled job in hand car washing (which is preferable as car’s won’t get scratched as easily):
Car Wash $10
Contributions to Car Washes per hour = 5 (I think I’m underestimating but it maybe more or less depending on the time of day)
Contribution per hour = $50 minus any expenses, the highest being land rental and to maximise return on land rental you employ the optimal number of people to carry out as many car washes as you can in that amount of land.
The worker above is likely to provide much more than $4 of value per hour. Perhaps 10 times more than $4 per hour
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