Racism & Sexism (etc) discussion


#1

In light of whats occuring in the xhaka thread, i figured we could do with a general thread on hate crime! Racism, sexism, you name it, it belongs here.

@Kaner @arsenescoatmaker

@shamrockgooner if you don’t mind please amend subject and body as you see fit. Could posts be transferred from Xhaka to get that thread back to a less fragile place of fun, and to kick off this one? :smile:


#2

I’m sure that’s possible but I can’t remember how on the phone. :smile:


#3

For a start you could change the title from hate crime because that’s not what we were talking about, calling someone a white bitch is not a hate crime lol


#4

Ha! Fuck it then. :smile:

Edit: @Kaner racism is considered a hate crime, and it’s in line with what was being discussed in the Xhaka thread.

I titled it as such because we don’t discuss things like racism nearly enough to warrant specific threads on the topic, and felt it would get more use as a general topic that encompasses a broad array of ‘hate crimes’. Hope thats okay with you. :slight_smile:


#5

I have some incredibly controversial views on the topic of racism.


#6

Go for it buddy. Spill the beans, ill go grab some popcorn and get comfy. :smile:


#7

Unless you want to talk about the fact that reverse racism isn’t an issue for society as a whole and straight white middle class males born in the south of England are basically some of the luckyist people to have ever been born in the history of humanity then I’m really not interested


#8

Go for it, explain all to me. Im all ears. Btw, can you define reverse racism for me? Just so i know we are on the same page.


#9

I don’t like to have this type of discussion because it doesn’t really go anywhere. I think most people who aren’t affected by institutionalised racism and whatnot are sometimes oblivious to the true extent of it. I didn’t follow the debate in the other thread so I don’t even know if that’s what you guys are talking about. But in a world where white privilege is incredibly real, the whole topic leaves a really sour taste in my mouth.


#10

Don’t blame you. Horrible topic.

This is intended to be a mature place for learning and discussion so if you ever feel like divulging id love to hear your views mate.


#11

You know what it is mate it’s just because I work in finance. The Canary Wharf area. And I’m in an office where every top job is filled by older white men and all the roles of any real meaning are occupied by white man. And in all the jobs I’ve held since graduation (three) I’ve seen so many good ethnic candidates passed over for good jobs in favour of substandard white candidates. I’ve seen it happen way too many times for it to not get me angry.

Classism, racism and sexism are massive issues in the professional working environment.

And that aside I’ve been treated in horrible ways by police and whatnot at airports and stuff. Only last week was I in a stop off in Paris and I was stopped by police three times, searched, scanned for residue of drugs, interrogated by airport officials. And for what? I’m a British born North African with no criminal record, no history of any involvement with anything shady. And I got stereotyped just because I’m North African.

I’ve been stopped and searched by police when I’m with black friends and told by police officers with their own mouths that they stop black people because black people are most likely to commit crimes.

I don’t even know if I’m veering massively off topic I’m just ranting a bit now.

But I’ve had too much firsthand experience of racism in the workplace and outside the workplace.

And I understand white British people can be victims of racism too. It just doesn’t resonate with me when I hear them complain about it because it doesn’t have any lasting impact on the quality of their life in the same way it does for ethnic people.

Even my fiancé is a black woman and only today she found out the reason she’s been having so many issues at work is because her supervisor is a staunch racist who’s made it his mission to have her and one of her other black colleagues removed because, in his words to another member of management (who’s decided to bring the topic to light), he can’t stand them.

If you’re a working class ethnic person then the odds are really stacked against you in the workplace that’s for sure.

Anyways rant done lol.


#12

Having been born in Australia, racism is basically a part of our culture. It’s not necessarily accepted however you don’t go a day without it. Most of the “whities” here believe the country belongs to them, which in a way could be viewed as being true, but the fact of the matter is that the Government pays royalties to the indigenous “traditional owners” of the land, which aren’t white.

When I first joined OA, I posted quite a controversial post about some of the behaviors of the latest generations of indigenous Australians, the responses were interesting but I felt were a little “sheltered”, here is a documentary ( http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/program/first-contact ) from last year which I think may enlighten a lot of people. I do not believe myself to be a racist person, when I was younger, indigenous mates would call me a white cunt and I would call them a black cunt, there was a mutual respect there, I don’t know if that is racist as such, I suppose it is but I don’t see it as being wrong. Where do you draw the line between race-based-banter and racism (hate-crime style)? Can you even draw a line?

Edit: Having just posted this, I realize I sound like a right racist cunt :expressionless:. This is not the case, I have mates, colleagues, associates from all kinds of races, religions etc, and would happily have them all at my dinner table, accommodating for Halal if required.


#13

I don’t think you do actually. All you’ve really said is that you called some mates some questionable names and you’re not sure if an arbitrary line between what is and isn’t racism exists. There are things that most definitely are racism such as profiling by police and things that aren’t so clear cut such as how you and your mates acted when younger.

Context really does matter in this discussion imo.

Edit: that said I think if that’s a behaviour you carry into adulthood it’s definitely problematic. I definitely said things as a kid that I’d never repeat as an adult because now I know better.


#14

I am quite sure that ‘most’ white western guys (I’ll get to why) do not understand the receiving end of racism properly unless they have something similar to compare to. They want to, from good will, it is just not an easily understandable thing. Most brains that weren’t exposed to it for a long time probably cannot take in the width of being notified/reminded umpteen times a day doing daily things like reading texts on pretty much anyhing from signs to instruction manuals, watching pictures of anything from products to commercials to children’s drawings, seeing the subtle eye movements of cashiers, teenagers, old people, security guards, body language, not to mention reading the news where it is an absolute fuck-your-equality reminder fest -daily- no matter the intention of the article and it’s been like that for decades.

It is far more subtle than you think I would guess, it is just that most people from ethnic minorities often don’t make a fuss, out of experience. At some point most have worked through processes to not end up taking the road where you bitch about it, or become cynical, or slowly lose self-value or become a hater yourself. At an adult age plenty would say “doesn’t bother me” but that’s adaptation speaking, it says nothing about whether the case in point is fair.

It is also not always about obvious defining events where you went on a bus and someone yelled something and you were a sad panda. The every day wearing and tearing effect is also there. There probably isn’t a simple way to deal with it, it’ll be a long process thanks to people in the past setting norms that still persist.

It might seem unfair to a young white westerner (derp) who didn’t create this problem and wants to do good, to feel like they’re being blamed since it is obviously not their fault, most people know that. Most of the time you can tell when the intention is harmless. Yet at the same time damage is still caused daily and people who are feeling it every day often decide to not play the bitch-about-it card or even allow that perspective to enter their mind.

I now imagine women notice many of the same subtle things with sexism, things that I as a guy don’t even notice, from seeing similarities with the ethnicity issue. I used to downplay the sexism thing when I was in my early teens before I one day was mature enough to draw that parallel in my head and realised there is definitely a case there.

edit: to clarify I’m just talking from my own experience, I imagine this issue takes different forms depending on where you live.


#15

I know this is going to piss people off but if, theoretically, statistics show that black and asian people tend to commit a disproportionately high amount of crime (violent and otherwise) compared to their population (even if it’s due to unfortunate socio-economic circumstances) doesn’t it make sense that they are stopped by police more often?

I don’t think that’s racism, that’s just statistically rational and logical, regardless of how unpleasant and unfair it is.

I’m just asking. Same for airport and travel profiling.

9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Paris x2, Nice, Brussels, Berlin - these were all committed by people who were of north african/middle eastern descent, or at the very least looked it. So surely police and security forces are under more pressure to search and be suspicious of that type of individual rather than a vanilla face middle-class guy like me, no?


#16

And herein lies the issue. People like you will just never understand why things are the way they are. It’s the same old rubbish rhetoric about how ethnics commit more crimes and North Africans should be profiled because they’re more likely to be terrorists.

There is nothing unfortunate about our unfortunate socio-economic circumstances. It’s calculated. We are born into poverty and expected to fight our way out of it with limited opportunity.

Stop limiting our opportunities to progress and prosper in the same way white guys are given ample opportunity in life and then maybe you won’t see this “disproportionate number” of ethnic people committing crimes. If you see the struggle some people go through it’s no wonder they turn to crime as a way out.

Where I’m from in London has some of the worst mental health statistics in the country and do you know why that is? Because we grew up in poor houses, dysfunctional families, attended terrible schools and suffered racism and classism from the get go in life.

When you’ve never suffered from it - you’ll just never truly understand how bad it is.


#17

It’s not logical. It’s racial profiling.

My fiancé brother is an English teacher. Never committed a crime. No criminal background. Nothing of the sort. He gets stopped by the police even when he’s in his suit on his way home from work.

Logic though isn’t it? Because he’s black he must be more likely to commit crimes.

I get stopped and harassed at airports. Stopped on the street and searched by police. I work in finance, at a top company. I have no criminal record. I am barely even religious.

Yet I’m North African so because of that I should be stopped and harassed by police. Despite just going about my day like any normal human being.

My close friend only a few weeks ago was pinned to the ground and searched aggressively by police because he asked them why they wanted to stop him. He said he was going about his day, he has no criminal background. Nothing. But the colour of his skin made him the “logical” choice to be harassed by the police.

How is that logical? How is stopping someone because they have a different skin colour logical.

How is your thought process even rational?

It’s rubbish like that which has given birth to racial profiling becoming acceptable in people’s eyes.


#18

I’ll add something to your point.

I have to wonder why whites don’t get racially profiled as much? Say, white teenagers in the US going to school randomly stopped and searched for guns.

White teenagers or their parents stopped from buying guns because as a proportion of the population are more likely to commit mass shootings?

Not attacking or challenging you. I feel my question links in to your point nicely.

Does anyone have any info on if this happens? I would love to see how it happens if so.

Because if it does on a similar scale to other types of racial profiling then that’s fair.

If not, then that begs the question: why not?


#19

Wow, you weren’t joking when you said controversial. :smile: @SRCJJ what happened with your mrs? Has it gone to HR or the police? Your own brand of justice?


#20

You are totally correct on every point, but it’s still true that the man who blows up your plane is not likely going to be a middle class white guy. Just as its unlikely to be a woman. or a kid. it’s profiling, that’s exactly the point of it. I don’t consider profiling per se racist, its simply organising according to data. If the politics of societies changed - being that society is dominated by rich white people - then the conditions of racism would be changed. I don’t know for sure, but you probably wouldn’t object to being profiled getting on a plane, if that was all it was. But added to all the other myriad forms of racism you must experience all day, every day, I can see why its a problem. Like I say it’s how race is linked to economics / life chances / physical intimidation and violence that’s really the problem. I’d be a bit annoyed if security didn’t check someone so not to profile and they proceeded to hijack my plane.