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My family from my father’s side originates from what is now Ukrainian territory. They were forced to move west ward to what is now Poland after World War 2.

Ukraine was never a homogeneous place. There were large groups of Polish, Jewish, Romanian, Belorussian, Russian, Bulgarian, Crimean Tatars, Hungarian and Ukrainian.

Those territories have also been shifting from nation to nation and people have been displaced throughout its history.

If we take the city of Lviv, which sits next to the Polish border in Western Ukraine.

Before World War 2. The city of Lviv had a population of 63.5% (!) Polish citizens. After World War 2 this dramatically dropped to 10% and 1959 onwards to less than 2%. This was partially a population exchange and partially ethnic cleansing of ethnic Poles by Ukrainian nationalists.

The same goes for the Jewish population in Ukraine and many other minorities.

During World War 2, Ukrainian nationalists actively collaborated with the nazis and these ethnic cleansing pogroms were part of that.

One of the reasons why I have a problem with the U.S. supporting regime change in the world is because they often support outright fascist governments as they did with Pinochet in Chile or the terrorist communist regime of Cambodia: Khmer.

Ukraine government now is infested with nationalist and sometimes fascist elements. Since the coup in 2014 there were petitions and talks of erecting a statue of Stepan Bandera, openly admiring him.

Stepan Bandera orchestrated the assassination of Poland’s Minister of the Interior Bronisław Pieracki in 1934. He was a far right ultra nationalist. Also instigating and orchestrating pogroms against non-ethnic Ukrainians.

There are plenty of elements to this day in Ukraine who support this guy. There are marches through the streets of large cities of far right extremists.

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(thousands march to honour Nazi collaborator in Kiev - The Times of Israel)

BBC: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict - BBC News

And these are low-key being supported by the U.S. - financially as well as armed. The same they did in other places around the world. On one hand they are crying wolf and on the other they are the ones arming Al Qaeda, ISIS and other extremists in the Middle East and now far right extremists in Ukraine.

This is why I strongly dislike U.S. foreign policy. Because it is all a lot of mumbo jumbo on media TV and so many fall for it. Every. Single. Time. You would think people start to see the pattern, but they will still blindly follow the U.S. into their democracy wars - which nobody asked for, but they were forced upon anyway.

Now when we look at a map of ethnicity in Ukraine, we can see that the regions of Donetsk and Lugansk are predominantly Russian oriented. People feel Russian culture and speak mostly Russian.

Putin would never want to take entire of Ukraine and give himself a headache of cosmic proportions navigating that cesspool of ethnic tension. He would be interested only in the near Eastern parts which house many ethnic Russians. The same he did with Crimea, which by all means, is majority pro Russian. It was also given away by Chroestjov to Ukraine.

On top of all of this. True Ukrainians are ethnically Rus. The original Rus settlements of Kiev was were the entire Rus civilization spawned from and started establishing various Duchies. The Duchy of Moscow, Duchy of Novograd, St. Petersburg and so forth.

Ukrainian language is literally sounding 50% Polish and 50% Russian. I understand Ukrainian almost to the entire extent.

I have nothing against ordinary Ukrainians, but nazi, fascist and the blind support of U.S. geopolitical meddling, yes, I do and always will. And I don’t even care about Russia as I think it is a hellhole for its own reasons and the general populace there has got a tremendous task at hand to change the direction they are heading in.

I am glad to see that France and Germany are trying to navigate this a bit more independently. Going to Moscow and Kiev to try reach a solution.

The U.S. isn’t interested in a solution.

Came off maybe incoherent towards the end, but this will explain my stance on this topic from my perspective. Which is a bit more local than the average Westerner can see it

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Yes I can remember reading about Lviv. Sad story. Mass killings by both the Germans and the Russians there

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Well worth a read

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Mental how its 2022 and we need to do this because guys can’t stop being creeps

They have those in Japan where it was/is huge problem.

They have it in Dubai too iirc

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I know that the nature of war is that it’s bad for most people remotely near it, but if Russia invades Ukraine it will be a war in literally nobody’s interest.

Except defence contractors :slight_smile:

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America will be raging

In a few weeks time another story of “imminent invasion” via trusted, honest American media will pop up. And the whole carousel will be repeated.

weeks is optimistic :slight_smile:

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:smiling_face_with_tear: :smiling_face_with_tear:

I just don’t see the logic in this line of thinking.

Why would the US want Russia to invade Ukraine?

They’ve just spent billions in an extremely messy pull out of Afghanistan because they were tired of fighting an endless insurgency and there’s no appetite in the American population to send their soldiers over to die in a frozen wasteland.

All the evidence points to the USA NOT wanting this war. They’ve point blank refused to send troops to Ukraine, Biden said they wouldn’t respond to an incursion with troops etc.

They’ve stationed troops in neighbouring NATO countries as a show of strength and deterrence but I highly doubt the US are itching to send over 50,000 troops to eastern Ukraine to die in a total shit show.

They’ve had tonnes of talks, meetings and calls with Russia etc. along with France, UK and Germany. They leaked Russia’s invasion plans that the intelligence services got as a way of saying “we know what you’re going to do and when you’re going to do it, this will be painful for you Russia, you’re better off not invading”.

I just don’t see how this is all just some sort of sleight of hand posturing by America pretending that they don’t want a bloody war and then somehow getting the media to provoke Putin into invading?

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If the U.S. don’t want this war. You don’t antagonise Russia by ignoring the official deals signed, which stated no expansion of NATO near Russia’s borders. Ukraine is at Russia’s border.

The U.S. funded and supported the coup in 2014. It’s not a secret they funded and supported it. A coup they liked, so it is okay. Aight.

Russia doesn’t like it.

Would the U.S. like it if Russia or China surrounded them with military personnel in Mexico, Cuba, Bahamas and Canada?

Russia wants security guarantees.

The only ones de-escalating the situation are Germany and France.

Certainly not the U.S. who are throwing around nonsense news stories about so many things, of which the Soviet PRAVDA newspaper would be jealous.

Why Russia pulled away some military personnel, is perhaps because of these developments (taken from the BBC article Calum posted):

German chancellor arrives in Moscow

Diplomatic efforts are continuing, with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz arriving in Moscow, where he is due to meet President Valdimir Putin.

EU ready to discuss Russian security concerns

The European Union’s top diplomat says it must be accepted that everyone has security concerns, including Russia.

Thank god we have some sensible people in the room.

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Which official deals are you referring too? This is one of those things which is constantly said by Russia but I don’t think I’ve actually heard of treaty where this is signed.

And Russia tried assassinating Ukrainian PM Yukaschenko by poisoning him in 2004 because they didn’t like his stance on Russia lol

Russia have been so antagonistic over the last few years it’s outrageous.

Crimea, Georgia, Litvenenko, Salisbury, Yuckashencko, hacking attacks, Brexit, Trump etc.

No wonder the US stepped in in the coup in 2014 or Ukraine would just be a vassal state.

And Ukraine isn’t and won’t become a member of NATO, Russia and Putin are just petulant man-babies who don’t like a taste of their own expansionist medicine.

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Interesting theory.

Ukraine is a vassal state. Just one of the U.S. now.

Did you know that Ukraine resembles Russia a lot? Internally it’s a mess. Rife with corruption. Poverty rampant? Oligarchs ruling the country and extracting wealth wholesale.

Just the side America likes are the corrupt ones now.

Hacking, Brexit and Trump. You still believe that nonsense? It’s Russia’s fault? There has literally been provided no evidence at all that Russia hackers won Trump the presidency. It has all been a lot of hot air and a few ghosts pulled out of the closet to parrot some nonsense presented as evidence.

Unreal you people still fall for that tripe.

SOmeone guessing Hillary’s password and leaking emails that people should know about as to make an informed opinion on how to vote for is hardly meddling or hacking. Hillary’s dirty laundry got exposed and that is a good thing. Same way it is a good thing to expose Trump for the buffoon he is.

Then you can make an informed vote who to vote for and both suck hairy donkey balls. Alas, that is the nature of American “democracy”. :joy:

How about Hillary lost, because she was incompetent that even a douchebag like Trump beat her to it? Hillary is nothing to be proud of. In fact on foreign policy she is outright atrocious. Laughing how people lynched Khadaffi. Now look at Libya, a cesspool of violence and extremism, with courtesy of the U.S. - Thanks America!

Brexit and Trump occurred because a part of your society doesn’t want the other side to win. Simple as that.

Sure Russia does bad stuff too. But, the U.S. hardly has a leg to stand on when we talk about doing bad stuff. They are the masters of it, just nicely dressed while going about it.

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I will look into it later.