Arsène Wenger

The Arsenal
#1691

lol backtrack on what? You haven’t a clue, I genuinely wasn’t trying to “purposely divulge [divert?] from what you were getting at” because the initial statement was so patently wrong/without a clue that I thought stating it as simply as I did would suffice, and because I doubt(ed) that you were trying to get at anything, and were simply just without a clue.

Anyways, 100% of the Guardiola critiques come from ignorance (as does Wenger blind support like your own at this point), so it makes sense.

#1692

I was not at all criticising Guadiola.
I am just questioning a weird opinion of yours.

And I can’t take criticism of my Wenger support seriously coming from a guy once called ‘ArseneCuellar’

#1693

While you’re right Heyneckes won the CL with Bayern, while Pep couldn’t. Yes he played lovely football etc. But I reckon my mum could win the BL with Bayern and she hates football…she’d figure out if they weren’t trying though

You do see how supposedly great managers are when they have a shit squad to deal with.

#1694

No. Guardiola actually got criticisim in the German media, because of the fact his playing style wasn’t similar and he was diverting too much off what made them a success under Heynckes.

#1695

Wenger doesnt want to bench either Giroud or Alexis. So expect them both to be playing as much football as possible with no striker back up.

#1696

I did also read criticism from players like Pizarro & all of how much changes were there; but it wasn’t like going from Tony Pulis esque football to Guardiola esque football, was it?

#1697

In the end the CL is a cup competition, there’s a lot of variance/luck involved to win it (just look at Madrid their last two wins). Guardiola didn’t have that at Bayern, notably having practically the whole team injured against Barça. In the end he made the semi-final every single time, the consistency of quality was absolutely there.

A better barometer is the league, because of the sample size. In the 3 seasons before him Bayern averaged 76.3 pts per season, winning the league once, in the 3 seasons with him 85.6, winning 3 times. This all despite radically changing the style of play from day one.

@Trion , just give it up mate, you said something ignorant, just admit it, don’t emulate your old pal Brady too much by making it worse by throwing more shit on top of it. It doesn’t matter if the base was Tony Pulis football, the point is the change in style of play from day 1 was absolutely tangible, hence it’s impossible to say that the quality of Pep’s football is simply down to the quality of his players, or coming from Barcelona where that culture is already there. Equally as noticeable as the difference in Bayern’s football from Heyneckes to Guardiola was the downgrade in football from Pep to Martino (don’t feel like bringing Tito into this, let him RIP).

That is why I said any doubt I had about Pep’s quality (and I did have them) was erased after his first season at Bayern.

#1698

Sigh.

Talk about ignoring the main point.

#1699

What was that, then, lol?

You posted this

[QUOTE]How so?
Not like I doubt Guardiola’s genius but Bayern were playing his sort of football with previous manager Huychens(??) as well.
So managing Bayern is not exactly a sctrach job where he proved himself.

And weirdly he felt the absence of players like Robben/Ribery(who emulate Messi) to push for CL.

There shouldn’t be any doubt in Guardiola’s managerial skills but at the same time, I don’t think any of his jobs serve as a test, maybe this one.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]In the end the CL is a cup competition, there’s a lot of variance/luck involved to win it (just look at Madrid their last two wins). Guardiola didn’t have that at Bayern, notably having practically the whole team injured against Barça. In the end he made the semi-final every single time, the consistency of quality was absolutely there.

A better barometer is the league, because of the sample size. In the 3 seasons before him Bayern averaged 76.3 pts per season, winning the league once, in the 3 seasons with him 85.6, winning 3 times. This all despite radically changing the style of play from day one.

@Trion , just give it up mate, you said something ignorant, just admit it, don’t emulate your old pal Brady too much by making it worse by throwing more shit on top of it. It doesn’t matter if the base was Tony Pulis football, the point is the change in style of play from day 1 was absolutely tangible, hence it’s impossible to say that the quality of Pep’s football is simply down to the quality of his players, or coming from Barcelona where that culture is already there. Equally as noticeable as the difference in Bayern’s football from Heyneckes to Guardiola was the downgrade in football from Pep to Martino (don’t feel like bringing Tito into this, let him RIP).

That is why I said any doubt I had about Pep’s quality (and I did have them) was erased after his first season at Bayern.[/QUOTE]

I posted this.

What have I not responded to?

#1700

Never mind

#1701

I refuse to believe this, I can’t… I won’t.

1 Like
#1702

I guess i won’t be able to sleep off an incomplete debate :laughing:

My point was that Guardiola emulating his football with Bayern was not really a challenge too big.
A challenge would be taking a defensive Arsenal known for 1-0 wins to transform them into an attacking force that Wenger managed.
That is a transformation.

What Guardiola did was mere upgrade on Heychenks’ Bayern.

Instead of arguing how that upgrade was still challenging for Guardiola, you focused on me using the word ‘similar’.
I even used the phrase that ‘maybe not as elaborate’ but somehow when i should discuss football, I should encapsulate all angles & safeguard them to avoid people diverting from the topic.

So once again, How is getting a strong Bayern team (winner of CL & possessing most WC winning players) follow his football, a real test for Guardiola?

PS - For fuck sake, i don’t need a lecture in difference in football style. I am only concerned with obstacles Guardiola would face with such a side.

#1703

Here’s a post i made in another thread. Im really interested to know why people think Guardiola needs to challenge himself to be proven?

2 Likes
#1704

Again, I’ve already responded to this, in the post I made and then quoted in full, and if I have to provide more reasons to convince you it’s likely you just don’t/won’t get it.

#1705

I don’t think Guardiola, a manager who won multiple CLs, needs to prove himself.
The discussion was about something else, which after waking up realised that i shouldn’t have stretched it this long.

#1706

Complete rubbish. Top managers earn the right to manage top clubs in the same way I wouldn’t expect Messi to leave Barcelona and ply his trade at a relegation threatened La Liga club to prove he could still do it there.

We’ve seen plenty of occasions when managers of low/mid level clubs step up to big clubs and can’t handle the pressure and expectation so the notion people throw around that managing a big club is easy is complete rubbish.

I have no doubt in my mind that Pep is the best manager in the world.

And also those who downplay what he did at Bayern are literally just going on the fact that the team didn’t win the CL there so he can’t possibly have been a success.

Not true. I’ll find you an amazing article that breaks down the true scale of his accomplishments at Bayern.

#1707

You do realise how tough it is to win trebles lol. Clubs like Man United, Inter Milan have only done it once.

2013 was Bayern’s first and only treble.

But Pep himself won Barca’s first treble so he is part of that history.

I think Ajax have won one but apart from that no other club has ever done it. Think the great Capello Milan teams, the Liverpool sides of the 80s. They haven’t done it either. A lot of shit has to come together for a treble to happen. (I.e. If Dennis doesn’t bottle that penalty against United in 1999 no treble for them.)

So not winning a treble is not a crime. What Pep did do is win the double 2 out of 3 years he was at Bayern and winning the Bundesliga every year he was there.

So basically in 3 years he got just as many doubles as Wenger has had in 20 years at Arsenal. With more European trophies won too as he won the Super Cup in his first season.

No matter what anyone says, he has been an immeasurable success at Bayern. Ask them yourself.

All his lack of European success shows is how hard it actually is to win the big eared fucker. How everything has to come together at the right time in terms of form, lack of injury, luck and the draw. Facts we as Arsenal fans know first hand.

1 Like
#1708

It’s a bit unfair to compare Wenger to Pep. Pep has been at two clubs who have had ready made world class teams with so many world class players. Wenger has never really had that. Not saying what Pep has done isn’t amazing, but it’s a bit unfair to compare him to Wenger. A real comparison would be if Pep managed a team full of potential like Arsenal or if wenger managed a team full of superstars, Madrid, Barca, Bayern etc.

1 Like
#1709

Not only the treble but the Champions League too. I think there are only 5 managers who have won the Champions League multiple times with different clubs.

#1710

Jupp Heynckes is one of them funnily enough. He lost his job directly after winning it both times too. :joy::joy: