I think Israel’s actions in this war show the only outcome Netanyahu would ever consider acceptable is Israel occupying the whole of Israel and Palestine and every Palestinian driven out of its borders. The man is an absolute tyrant.
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That kind of flies in the face of Hamas’ actual stated goal of an Islamic state encompassing all the land between the river and the sea.
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Absolutely. If you don’t have a strong hand during the negotiations, you can’t expect the other party to give you the best offer.
Just compromise and take what you get.
We achieved nothing by trying to stay firm on the original borders demands.
Correction, we achieved self inflicted genocide.
I don’t think the likes of Netanyahu want a two state solution, but he certainly didn’t want to reoccupy Gaza even if for no better reason than it’s more trouble than it’s worth.
October 7th was partly his fault because he was happy to play off Hamas against Fatah and the PA. Although there was a genuine complacency, in that Hamas have always been clear about their stated aim to slake the thirst of the soil with Jewish blood.
But this idea that if Israel withdrew from the West Bank like it had from Gaza it would lead to peace flies in the face of jihadist Islamist ideology. The existence of Israel is unacceptable to them.
I think October 7th set back any realistic prospect of peace back twenty years (which was what Iran wanted). But the first step to peace is to stop UNRWA from being complicit in perpetuating this idea that the whole of the Levant belongs to Arabs.
Israel could do with a better leader than Netanyahu (although a better leader would still have looked to destroy Hamas militarily) but more blindingly obvious is that Palestine needs leaders that won’t lock its people into this never ending tragedy of an existential war that it will never win.
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You’re conflating Hamas with the Palestinian people which seems to be a common theme of anyone on the side of Israel in this conflict. Not saying you are necessarily, just that’s a common part of the pro-Israel argument here and used to justify whatever horror Israel inflicts on Palestinians.
It’s widely reported that the Israeli government and Netanyahu himself preferred Hamas over a progressive government developing in the Palestinian Territories. Why else would they allow Hamas to receive funding and support from Qatar (I believe)?
Lol what? Explain this.
And I love how you even claim such a thing when a certain forced expulsion (that shall not be named) happened in Europe in the 1940’s.
Or the many expulsions and genocides in Europe prior to that.
No mods mad about this one?
No, I was responding to @SRCJJ 's point about militia groups.
I doubt Hamas has a ton of actual on the ground support in Gaza. I’m sure there are people who work for them who enjoy the salary or the benefits but if there were actual elections, I’d like to think most people voting there would opt for a secular political party over an explicitly Islamist one.
I think they preferred Hamas in charge instead of the PA in order to drive a wedge between both entities while also being able to point to Hamas as a justification for Israel continuing to carry out periodic bombing campaigns in Gaza. The Hebrew phrase they used for it translates to “mowing the lawn” just to give you an idea of how craven of a guy we’re dealing with here. It allowed Bibi and the right wingers to maintain the status quo. Hamas isn’t going to move left which means Bibi can say “Oh well, we’d love to have a free and independent Palestinian state operating in Gaza but these darn Hamasniks just won’t stop talking about killing all of us. Guess we can’t come to the table for any negotiations.”
Edit: Also, what about me pointing out that Hamas has a stated goal of establishing a greater Islamic state across the whole area makes you think I’m pro-Israel? What about any of the things I’ve said in this thread make you think I’m pro-Israel?
No October attack, no escalation.
If this was always going to happen, why didn’t it happen in last 70 years?
It’s clear you’re not I was just pointing out the Hamas line is a common refrain from Israel apologists. Hence the “not saying you are” portion of my post.
No that’s fair. Although lately I’ve seen a lot of people in the USA who are progressive except on Israel really go overboard stressing that Hamas is not representative of the Palestinian people. For a while after 10/7 it was like a disclaimer that people would put in every article on Forward or Haaretz’s Op Ed page (but not Tablet, never Tablet).
Apologists ? Apologise for what?
Saying Hamas are not the Palestinians is like saying the Nazis were not the German people. It’s totally irrelevant, Hamas controls Gaza and if the PA allowed elections it would control the West Bank as well.
Do Palestinians protest the Devestation Hamas brought to their doorstep ? Yes some do. But many have been indoctrinated into believing their highest aspiration is to become a martyr. The program of denazification took the better part of a decade post WW2, and to get to the point where Palestinians want to live in peace in their own state…would take just as long.
How many?
Kind of hard to protest when you’re worried about dying from polio or something like that. I think it’s easy to say ordinary people should get out in the street to protest Hamas when we’re all sitting behind keyboards and not facing very real consequences for speaking up.
Would I put my own life on the line? Yeah, sure. Who gives a shit about me. But would I risk the lives of my partner and daughters? Not so sure about that.
Apologies if I read this reaction wrong. I assume that you think this didn’t happen.
Just need a quick read of wikipedia,
Egypt
Iraq
Syria
In 1947, rioters in Aleppo burned the city’s Jewish quarter and killed 75 people.[198] As a result, nearly half of the Jewish population of Aleppo opted to leave the city,[5] initially to neighbouring Lebanon.[199]
In 1948, there were approximately 30000 Jews in Syria. In 1949, following defeat in the Arab–Israeli War, the CIA-backed March 1949 Syrian coup d’état installed Husni al-Za’im as the President of Syria. Za’im permitted the emigration of large numbers of Syrian Jews, and 5000 left to Israel.[199]
The subsequent Syrian governments placed severe restrictions on the Jewish community, including barring emigration.[199] In 1948, the government banned the sale of Jewish property and in 1953 all Jewish bank accounts were frozen. The Syrian secret police closely monitored the Jewish community. Over the following years, many Jews managed to escape, and the work of supporters, particularly Judy Feld Carr,[200] in smuggling Jews out of Syria, and bringing their plight to the attention of the world, raised awareness of their situation.
Although the Syrian government attempted to stop Syrian Jews from exporting their assets, the American consulate in Damascus noted in 1950 that “the majority of Syrian Jews have managed to dispose of their property and to emigrate to Lebanon, Italy, and Israel”.[201][202] In November 1954, the Syrian government temporarily lifted its ban on Jewish emigration.[203] The various restrictions that the Syrian government placed on the Jewish population were severe. Jews were legally barred from working for the government or for banks, obtaining driver’s licenses, having telephones in their homes or business premises, or purchasing property.
In March 1964, the Syrian government issued a decree prohibiting Jews from traveling more than three miles from the limits of their hometowns.[204] In 1967, in the aftermath of the Six-Day War, antisemitic riots broke out in Damascus and Aleppo. Jews were allowed to leave their homes only for few hours daily. Many Jews found it impossible to pursue their business ventures because the larger community was boycotting their products. In 1970, Israel launched Operation Blanket, a covert military and intelligence operation to evacuate Syrian Jews, managing to bring a few dozen young Jews to Israel.[205]
Clandestine Jewish emigration continued, as Jews attempted to sneak across the borders into Lebanon or Turkey, often with the help of smugglers, and make contact with Israeli agents or local Jewish communities. In 1972, demonstrations were held by 1000 Syrian Jews in Damascus, after four Jewish women were killed as they attempted to flee Syria. The protest surprised Syrian authorities, who closely monitored Jewish community, eavesdropped on their telephone conversations, and tampered with their mail.[205]
Following the Madrid Conference of 1991, the United States put pressure on the Syrian government to ease its restrictions on Jews, and during Passover in 1992, the government of Syria began granting exit visas to Jews on condition that they did not emigrate to Israel. At that time, the country had several thousand Jews. The majority left for the United States—most to join the large Syrian Jewish community in South Brooklyn, New York—although some went to France and Turkey, and 1262 Syrian Jews who wanted to immigrate to Israel were brought there in a two-year covert operation.[206]
In 2004, the Syrian government attempted to establish better relations with its emigrants, and a delegation of a dozen Jews of Syrian origin visited Syria in the spring of that year.[206] As of December 2014, only 17 Jews remain in Syria, according to Rabbi Avraham Hamra; nine men and eight women, all over 60 years of age.[207]
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At the very least, the count of Hamas militants that participated in the October 7 attack.
And as per rough estimates, that’s about a few thousand at the very minimum.
I’ve not argued that Gazans should be protesting Hamas, I’m saying whilst there are protests against Hamas. Hamas still control Gaza, just like the third reich controlled Germany. And unfortunately the majority of Palestinians supported the orgy of violence that was October 7th, mainly because they are taught to dehumanise Jews
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That’s a wild claim. What’s it based on?
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Who are you really mate? Cause it seems strange to sign up to an Arsenal forum and predominantly focus on posting in the current affairs section.
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Could be Magic. Like Liam Brady.