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The left didn’t lose, neoliberals have lost.

There is no left and right anymore imo.

I knew I recognised this guy!

Ffs the people that elected him, what idiots…

Criminals just taking over, so brazen in their illegality. Europe…

We’ve just had a solid four years of Trump supporters/Republicans steadfastly refusing to accept that he lost an election legitimately lol

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From our European perspective they’re even right of the center.

From a general (uneducated) American perspective they are extreme left communists.


For sake of argument they’re left and republicans are right.

We will see if Trump wins if it won’t be the same. I’d bet we will see much of the same and little to no introspection of the Democrat party.

I guess Wilders is not one of them.

He is a raging Islamophobe though.

Is that seriously the only part of my post you’re going to address?

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For the sake of your argument it makes sense to call them left wing because you can then use them as an example.

That is objectively untrue though, wouldn’t you agree?

When you’ve got an Irishman and a Dutchman discussing the left within the context of European electoral politics, is there any value in indulging the most stupid American right wingers and their definition of what constitutes “extreme left wing communism”?

What is there to address? You talk about Ireland and I talk about the United States and the Netherlands.

I am sure you’d find most Americans consider Democrats left wing. Since the plutocracy of the USA
has got only two viable parties to vote for, one we can assume to be “left” and the other “right”. At the very least to their standards and understanding.

When the Democrats lost to Trump the first time, all excuses were pulled out and very little self reflection was showed by the Democrats. You could find article after article in mainstream outlets explaining why the Democrats lost, most of it was the fault of female hating racist xenophobes of which suddenly 60 million Americans were a part of :slight_smile:

Then in the Netherlands much the same happened when the right won big time.

Left wing got decimated and instead of perhaps reconsidering certain policies and listening to the people, they will blame everyone else from the beautiful inside of their ivory tower.

By either a European or global understanding of what being left wing constitutes, the Democrats aren’t it. Americans can consider them left wing if they like, but I don’t think that it makes sense for us to do so, as non-Americans discussing European left wing parties failing to take accountability when they lose. From the outside perspective, the USA has a liberal party and a right wing party, neither are left wing.

My contention is just that the Democrats aren’t a good example of left wingers failing to to take blame for their own losses, but an example of centrists/liberals doing that.

My view is that political parties of all ideological persuasions are capable of behaving this way. Democrats from 2016 to 2020 are an example for the centre/liberals, the Republicans in 2020 to 24, and I’ll take you at your word on the Dutch left parties. To make it clear that I’m not giving the left a pass here or arguing with the core point you have been making, I can even point to many supporters of Jeremy Corbyn, of which I was one, continually absolving him of any blame for the crushing majority the Tories secured against him. That’s a good example of left wingers failing to take responsibility for election losses to right wing parties (for the record, I will absolutely highlight mitigating factors that unfairly stacked the deck against Corbyn and fed into the awful loss, but unlike many of my comrades, I will also acknowledge that he is not a skilled front bench politician and that he made mistakes that contributed to the loss)

So not disagreeing with you broadly about the left, just questioning that one specific example, and making the point that this sort of thing is absolutely prevalent across the political spectrum.

I alshould just forget the Democrats being left wing or not thing, we’ve come across this several times before and it’s clear we just disagree on that point, and that neither of us are ever going to be able to bring the other round to their way of thinking :grin:

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Left wing movements are struggling but I wouldn’t say the parties in charge represent them completely. Centre parties are getting dunked on as well.

I don’t think using the two party system as a way to declare who is left and right is a good argument to present to people from the UK lol. Where one of the parties is trying to (rightly or wrongly) remove as much left-wing…‘presence’ as much as possible to reposition themselves.

Left and right is so outdated as a term.

The people that keep using it keep getting shat on by those that have moved past that paradigm, those so called ‘far right’.

I appreciate the nuances and elaboration.

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Oh for sure

For instance the PVV in the Netherlands is solely considered “far right” because of their stance on immigration. Their economic policies are actually quite left leaning and take cues from the socialist party.

So the views on immigration are more important for the label right wing than the views on economic policies. At least for the media labeling them as far right.

You must agree with the other bits i said so. :slight_smile:

Better training for Americans so they don’t drive on the wrong side of the road needed apparently.

I’m not sure you can train that level of arrogance and ignorance out of them.

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My girlfriend figured it out pretty quickly :person_shrugging:t3:

I’m sure. What I mean is, if someone has that level of arrogance that they think they can go to a country where people drive on the left and drive on the right instead, you’re not training that out of them.

Apparently Americans driving on the right in the area around that base is a common occurrence. Idiots.

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Yeah that is fucking stupid.

Should be a very standard part of the orientation they go through before coming to the UK.

It’s not even that. This woman presented her case like she went out on her first day in England and drove on the right and hit the first person she came across.

There’s no way she was unknowingly driving on the wrong side of the road.

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