Brexit - The UK decision to leave the European Union


#545

I don’t think any of what you’ve said would damage democracy though. A vote can only ever be decided by those who cast valid ballots.

Then again I live in a country where we twice voted against EU treaties only to vote them through a year to eighteen months later. So my perspective could be skewed by that. But it changed nothing really. The same two parties have maintained power since and voter turnout really hasn’t changed.


#546

The Prime Minister looked a broken woman in that presser earlier. Genuinely thought she was going to cry. :grimacing:


#547

Potentiality smart move by Labour with this.

Negate the 2016 vote with a clear mandate from the party’s membership who have always been pro EU and officially adopt a stance for a ‘vote on the final deal with an option to remain’

Lib Dems, Greens, SNP and any left leaning voter who wants to remain in the EU and don’t like Tory Britain. Now posesses clear motivation to vote for Labour. Labour surges in the polls because of this.

May will fail to get a deal and a vote of no confidence will be issued to trigger an election.

If Leave voting labour members complain they can’t argue with a democratic decision made by the membership of the party and they aren’t single issue voters, they aren’t going to flock to the conservatives because of Brexit.


#548

A “vote on the final deal” is most likely a win/win for every party other than UKIP/Tories. It’s basically a free shot to have a go at the deal negotiated by May and co. over the last 2.5 years rather than a decision to not deliver Brexit. I think the perceived incompetence of completely failing to prepare for a leave scenario then spending 2.5 years supposedly negotiating and working on a deal and completely failing to deliver will cause big political damage to the Tories (I’m not saying any other party would have done any better by the way but they’re not going to be getting the blame).

I believe that 52% of people wanted to leave on the basis of whatever interpretation they convinced themselves of at the time, but I’m certain that 52% of people didn’t want to leave with no deal or a shitty deal.

At least the required 2% swing will have voted on the belief that “they need us more than we need them” which was never true and even if it was, the EU doesn’t operate solely on common sense economics. There are bigger political motives at play and keeping the union together and going in the same direction is worth more than potentially risking a few percent off GDP in the short term, and even then I’m sure French and German banks aren’t going to be too upset about potentially taking business from the City.

I remember all the “oh there’s elections coming up in [EU country]” and [EU leader] won’t want to give us a bad deal and upset their businesses come election time" but those elections have come and gone and we’ve made zero progress, and I’m sure nobody in France or Germany is going to give a shit come the next election time that the UK was offered crappy terms 4 years previously.


#549

So we have a PM, who wants to stay in the EU but is fighting for us to leave. And we have an opposition leader, who wants to leave the EU, but is fighting for us to stay.

It’s all getting weird.


#550

Anyone who doesn’t know much about politics might look at this situation and think that politicians are being made to look like hypocrites, as if they could possibly be described like that. :grinning:


#551

Anybody here attend?


#552

#553

I really don’t see the point of this march. OK they have a democratic right to express themselves, but changing the result of the referendum is a) not going to happen, and b) if it did it would divide the country even more. The right wing gammons are hypocrites of course as they would be calling for a second referendum, but we do need to uphold the democratic decision, and what’s all the love for the EU anyway? It’s just a failed economic treaty. We should be in the streets demanding that the fuckwit government actually put together a vision with a proper strategy for dealing with the inevitable problems that will arise. It’s not the EU we need but a decent government. Austerity is a far worse economic drain than what Brexit will be. I also refuse to hang my hat on anything led by the likes of Soubry, Ummuna and Adonis…cunts the lot of them.


#554


#555

This isn’t remotely even close to being true


#556

Why not? Our infrastructure is under a state of vandalism due to austerity - police, health, education, welfare, transport, you name it it’s on the decline. Brexit might temporarily mean low stocks of food, but that’s a customs issue which will eventually right itself and could be prepared for. Trade arrangements would need to be sorted but will eventually be so. I don’t imagine too much capital flight either. The economy might shrink but that’s not necessarily a big problem, and in some cases might be an advantage. Austerity is naked ideology, the consensus around a failed neo-liberal outlook, but the EU is also that. The only value to the EU as far as I can see is that its an interlocked system and breaking it apart could be dangerous, but not breaking it apart is also dangerous. Or to put it another way Brexit plus austerity means double austerity, which is awful, but Brexit with an actual vision / plan / a movement away from austerity might be a positive thing, though with obvious risks.


#557

This isn’t an in/out vote. It’s a vote on the final deal the government puts forward.


#558

The leaders of the march to my knowledge all want remain on the ballot, which is logistically unworkable as three options splits the vote, which is unfair. Even if the vote is May’s current shit proposal versus hard Brexit, then hard Brexit will win, and we are back to where we are now. What’s the point?


#559

I don’t see a hard exit winning at all.


#560

A second referendum would be much more divisive than the first, especially if the option to remain was on the ballot. A question on May’s deal, No Deal, or EEA would get hijacked by the extremists and we would probably end up with an even harder brexit.
Then there is the fact that a referendum isn’t even possible, it takes about 6-7 months for all the legislation to be passed, and more importantly a government that actually wants one (even the opposition don’t want one).

Seems like an event that didn’t want a ‘People’s Vote’ just another re-run of the referendum, which a majority do not appear to want.

Even though Brexit will be fucking shit and will kill British industry I just want it over with already so we can build a different country, I certainly don’t want to debate the same issues over again.


#561

You use the term the economic drain but the sectors you mentioned are mostly public services, their effect on the economy is insignicant compared to the economic loss we will suffer through leaving the EU and trying to establishing ourselves afterwards.


#562

I like that the poster maker couldn’t be arsed after Baldrick.
It can be a microcosm of this whole brexit business


#563

True, but public services require considerable amounts of money and starved of that and two things happen - 1) significant sums of money will be needed to build them up, and 2) the knock on affect of less jobs or meaningful jobs, less investment, less training etc. which means less money circulating in the economy. I suppose there is a 3 also, the result is we privatise which means less profit and spend power for the government, which also means less money in the real economy.


#564

If you don’t laugh… :joy: