Your post makes a lot of sense, but speaking for myself watching Fabregas was a lot more exciting and cost a lot less frustration because of their respective qualities. This argument also pretty much means history equals trophies. But obviously players can be legends for different reasons and quality is only one of them.
I see where you are coming from, on a certain logical level what you say makes more sense.
Also, I donāt want you to misunderstand me, I too much preferred watching Fabregas! And thereās no doubt he was the vastly superior player.
But yeah, rightly or wrongly, on many levels history does equal trophies, that is clearly one of the main measures that determine how players and teams are remembered.
We can debate the merits, but itās basically a fact that in football a player who won two trophies with late winners will often be honoured in this way over a much better player who perhaps was greater for a team, but in less easily measurable ways. Repeating myself, but it helps if that better player didnāt then go and have greater success with a deeply hated rival. I think when you combine the two factors, someone like Ramsey will nearly always be remembered/honoured in this way over someone like Fabregas or van Persie (particularly van Persie).
2 goals in two FA Cup finals against inferior opposition in no way makes a ālegendā - FFS we could end up with a Bendtner or a Chamakh type player on that logic. Arshavin scored 4 against Pool, etc.
Ramsey was a long-standing decent player with one really superb season/half-season.
Putting him in the same category as Henry, Bergkamp, Pires, Adams, Vieira, or even Cesc/Ljungberg is ridiculous imho.
Iām not disagreeing with your logic overall, just wanted to point out 93 point league winners Chelsea arenāt inferior opposition haha.
I get the argument that he is possibly seen as the most influential player in recent years ā but being the least shit doesnāt = legend. I guess itās just the terminology I have a problem with. Like when you scan that wall, Ramsey doesnāt elicit the same feelings in me as everyone else on it does.
Also, if one of the reasons weāre discrediting RVP and Fabregas is because they won a major trophy with a rival of ours, what happens if Ramsey now goes on to do the same? We have no idea who heāll be playing for next season. Hopefully Bayern, but I can easily see him at Chelsea. Awks.
People get way too hung up on the word legend.
Fair - but that is one gameā¦ over the years it isnāt really arguable that he had one great season/half-seasonā¦ rest was average or above average at best for a top club.
Then what is the point of the word or words in general? It is a term used to describe the TOP tier of our players in historyā¦ Ramsey isnāt anywhere near that category imho.
If you donāt care about words or the semantic debate, then donāt engage in it.
RVP and Cesc were also f*ing unbelievable for us, especially Cesc. RVP practically carried us that one season and was relying on superstars like Song for service (as well as Cesc tbf).
Yeah I agree with all that.
Cesc and RVP were world class players that were wanted by the best clubs in Europe and then went on to win trophies with their new clubs.
The only reason Ramsey is being rumoured to be wanted by any top European club is because he is free.
How can a player that has rarely been a first team regular, and who has never been remotely being near our best player, as well as having several seasons where overall he has been frustratingly average, be considered a legend?
He might have scored FA Cup winning goals but one of those was against a relegated side.
How many other matches have we seen him shoot and then sky the ball into the stands, while his team mates look at him with disbelief.
Maybe I missed a whole load of marketing material pumped out by the club, but Iāve just seen one bloke on twitter describe it as a wall of legends, that seems to be where this whole debate started from. This is what I mean about getting too hung up on that word, as far as I can tell the club arenāt making a massive deal about this and proclaiming Ramsey to be a LEGEND on par with the all time greats. As far as I can tell, people here are getting worked up about him being called a legend when all Iāve seen is one bloke on twitter use that term. But I could be wrong and simply missed the club proclaiming heās a legend.
Iām just viewing this as them adding him to a mural of people who have made significant contributions to the Arsenal history books, which seems fair enough as nobody else has had two greater moments for the club in the last decade, and the club are probably pretty keen to add someone from recent years to make it seem less like the last ten seasons have been shite.
Seems to me that some people just want something to whinge about.
Or whinging about whinging =)
I didnāt have full context, but it did rather seem the thread was discussing whether he deserved the moniker, however it came upā¦ imho he doesnāt - it isnāt a giant emotional crusade for any of us I suspect, but it just seems random or dumb or both.
It is his farewell statue .
Alan Sunderland is on their and he isnt a legend either. Its just a picture of him scoring the winning goal in the 79 cup final. Same as Ramsey, being highlighted for having delivered a piece of history. Nothing to get hung up about here.
Ramsey is not a club legend lol. A good servant to the club but not a legend.
Can you comfortably say he deserves to be named in the same bracket as your Bergkampās, Henryās, Adams etc. These are club legends.
Ramsey is in the same bracket as Cesc and RvP. Done good for the club for a long time but thatās it.
Definitely not, and to be fair Iām yet to see anyone suggest he should be.
Case in point, not a legend at all.
Even this is debatable. You can count the amount of good seasons with two fingers
Agreed. I think @Stroller made a good point though, similar to bits of what Iāve been saying. If you donāt view it as a wall of legends but as a wall of people who have made significant contributions, then itās all good really.
Because we havenāt had any legends since the Invincible era as far as Iām concerned, the best of the bunch since sit at a level below imo.