'Cos dey killed Jesus. :sanchez2:
I am so confused with history of Judaism, Moses and their involvement in Middle East & Christianity; especially considering Jesus was born a Jew.
Wow the old guy in the first video has such a punchable face-sonality. :sanchez2:
That said after watching both videos, Iâm genuinely surprised - as a non-religious person - that there is a belief that the Jews didnât kill Jesus. Thatâs completely new on me.
I was even taught in RE/RS that the Jews killed Jesus because they rejected him as blasphemous for falsely claiming to be the son of God.
Reported for christian nazism.
Christianity was despised and was a common source of ridicule by AH.
Failed attempt at joke. Sorry.
Itâs just that i see you as a bloody german. I donât know why.
well âodioâ is âhateâ, un club odiado is a hated club
te odio Tottenham = I hate you tottenham
Even if their indifference did lead to his death, ultimately it remains the Romans who conducted the crucifixion.
I keep hearing Christians go âJesus came to earth to die for our sinsâ; so wouldnât you be glad that Jews assisted Jesus in doing so?
More I look into Jewish history, more I feel like they are most prosecuted religion of all time.
Ruled & killed by various empires, accused of killing Jesus who was a Jewish saviour, Jews were considered enemy to Christianity which primarily is a Jewish sect, Hitler hated them, Muslims hate them.
Jerusalem was their land, so Israel/Jews had the right over it but Jesus was born there, so Christians want it. Muslims have their claim after they built their religious stuffs there.
So now Israel is stuck surrounded by enemies.
Man, it sucks to be a Jew.
I mean, you can take the cynical route and say that taking up the jewish link angle is going to catch the eye, get more hits, sell more papers or you could take the more forgiving route and just say probably 98% of Marcaâs readers wonât have a clue about this history of Tottenhamâs, will have no clue about any jewish links to Tottenham and much else other than that itâs a club from London (if that) who Gareth Bale used to play for, and that itâs interesting to talk about football history or a currently relevant club in the context of its long history.
Personally, in either case I donât see the issue. Newspapers are a business and Marca does FAR, FAR more cynical things than inform your run of the mill spanish football fan about the history of Tottenham while highlighting a history of good quality of football and generally taking a very positive angle toward the club. So do the English equivalents. I donât really want to go here because in the other recent conversation in the âgrind your gearsâ thread I was partly trolling and trying to provoke people and in this one Iâm 100% serious, but I really think this is a case of a) foreign paper (from a country with a very catholic history) using the word jewish and âhatedâ in a headline + b) people actively looking for things to be offended about on twitter/things that give them a platform to look righteous and sensitive and socially aware and considerate = SHOCK AND AWE
No, certainly not currently. But 60-70 years agoâbeing conservative here, probably beforeâsurely. Now any hate is probably more like racism or anti-semitism in the U.S., not out in the open whatsoever but that doesnât mean itâs not there.
Literally: hated. But hated in english sounds a lot stronger than âodiadoâ in this context in spanish. If I had more time when I was putting that quote above which I stumbled upon when reading an article on ESPN about this, I wouldâve qualified that itâs more of a misinterpretation than a mistranslation. Which is actually what Enrique Ortego said in his rectification-- interpretaciĂłn errĂłnea, which literally means misinterpretation.
Which is literally the case (no idea why ESPNFC decided to translate it to mistranslation, when there is also an English version of the article I see now: http://www.marca.com/en/football/international-football/opinion/2017/10/16/59e4c1d222601d2b578b4649.html , in which itâs translated as mistaken interperationâŚmaybe this version wasnât available when ESPNFC made the article).
In short, Iâm a translator so Iâm getting all nerdy about this-- the bottom line is that itâs a typical case of denotation vs. connotation. The denotation is exactly the same. The connotation is not. If I were translating that headline, to preserve the connotative meaning, I would probably go for disliked, as we use the word hated probably a bit more flippantly, as spanish is in general a bit more direct language in its use, and we are not as (havenât regressed so much? ) advanced in the arts of over-politeness and roundabout language.
Either wayâŚEnrique Ortego or whoever decided to write that rectification for him decided to put emphasis on interpretation of the word âodiadoâ to explain to the international/english speaking public why it might offend, which makes sense, but I would just say in general itâs a cultural thing, I canât imagine any spaniard, even an incredibly snowflakish jewish one, reading that headline and thinking twice.
As you say, though: they are saying thatâs a reason/contributing factor to why (historically) there has been ill-will toward them as a club. And my conclusion is the same: thereâs nothing wrong with that assertion, itâs factually correct.
Fair play, both you and @JakeyBoy have made good points tbh. Perhaps itâs a slight overreaction to take particular offence to the headline, although I do think itâs rather distasteful to draw attention to it so bluntly. My preconception of the paper does cloud my judgement alot, I think for the most part itâs journalists and headlines are awful.
In relation to the tweet;
Shows you how much people overreacted to it that he had to delete it
I dunnoâŚI just put Marca Tottenham into Twitter and between the blatant (most likely cynical and purposeful) mistranslations from the Independent/the Daily Mail and the alarmist tweets in reaction to them or the Marca headline have me pretty annoyed. I think the headline is designed okay enough.
"Hated/disliked but with good footballing style"â doesnât mention anything about the Jewish link. Then: "[The clubâs] jewish origins have made it an unpopular club among opposing fans, but in its 135 year lifetime it has always been a club with style and great players."
Then you see people turning this into:
https://twitter.com/TottenhamUKNews/status/919896259766431745
âŚwhich for me, is, if anything, something to be disgusted about. Otherwise, I struggle to see the problem, honestly.
This alarmist news/twitter world we live in these days rather amazes me. I would like to ask every single person who reacts so indignantly to trifles like these, who no doubt pride themselves on their âtoleranceâ, to remember what the word tolerance itself means. Because tolerance is not alarmist attitudes, it is not reactionary get offended-at-everything-and-lash-out-ismâŚit is rather the opposite, and those things are just what propagate environments where a LACK OF TOLERANCE exists.
I agree with the bottom part re; tolerance and people overreacting. Before the tweet was deleted I read through some of the comments below it which were definitely over the top. A lot of them were Spurs fans linking Marca and Real Madrid to Franco etc (which, in part is historically true but not needed and definitely not related to the article).
But I do contest the Jewish origin of the club being a reason why its hated if Iâm honest. I could be wrong here, pehaps in the past they were hated for that reason. They are hated by us because of proximity, same with West Ham, so I really donât see the relevance of what they put in the article.
I think you were right in the previous tweet, I think the Spanish phrasing sounds a bit harsher and direct than if it were published in English which has probably led to some of the reaction in the press and on twitter.
Besides, itâs taking away from the fact that I think the game tonight will be really competitive and entertaining.
Yeah. IMO the main objection to the statement would be whether it is factually accurate or not, as Iâm not sure if itâs the reason some sets of fans dislike them or whether its just something they thought they could give a rival stick for. For instance, the case of West Ham. East London used to be a real hub for Londonâs Jewish community, before North London was, so historically im not sure East Enders would see that as something to dislike Spurs for.
Chelsea have got a vocal element of nasty right wing cunts in their fan base that I know dates back to the 70s/80s, but whether that is the genesis for their rivalry with Spurs, I just donât know.
@JakeyBoy @will24 but this would go way back, before the 70s/80s, hence why I pointed out that âhistoricallyâ and âin its 135 years of lifeâ were important phrases in that headline.
Iâd compare it a bit to if an English rag had done a headline about Real Madrid saying: âHated/disliked but with bucketloads of trophiesâ, and âThe clubâs links to Franco have made it an unpopular club among opposing fans, but in its ___ year lifetime it has always been a club with success and great players.â
Are Madridistas going to like that headline? Probably not. Is it more or less factually correct? Yes. (Because, as you two rightly point out, itâs hard to say if those links to Franco or Tottenhamâs to Judaism are the reason why people dislike them, or if they are just things rival clubs use after the fact to give them stick for, hence why I now say âmore or lessâ factually correct, as opposed to âtotally factually correctâ as I said at first. Either way, itâs correct enough that you would have to be pretty pedantic to find fault with it, tbh, as there have no doubt been significant sections of people who didnât like Tottenham for its Jewish links just as there have been/still are significant sections of people who donât like Madrid for its links to Franquismo)
And if that happened, and the inevitable social media up-in-arms-ism resulted, I would say the same thing to offended Madridistas as I would now to offended Spurs supporters: get over it, and use your time getting offended on something else, because there are a million things more interesting or more important to get offended or get up in arms about.
Either way, a story like that, or the one Marca had, is doing more to inform than about 99% of the articles youâll see in these papers. I am sure just as the average spanish football fan has no fucking clue about Tottenhamâs jewish links neither does the average english football fan know about the Di Stefano case, know about the direct link between Raimundo Saporta (then vice president of RM) and Franco and about the gifts and bribes they gave to referees or their wives, etc.
Hence why I really donât have a problem with it, especially when the headline itself is overtly laudatory and pro-Tottenham. If The Mirror or The Independent or whoever made a similar headline about Barça just replacing Judaism for Catalan-ism, Madridistas would be furious about it, which is kinda the funny thing. In all this alarmism and anxiousness to get offended about something, Spurs fans have missed the fact that a Spanish paper is praising the fuck out of them.
You learn something new every day.
I assumed people hated Jews because of Tottenham. In hindsight, it always seemed a bit of an overreaction to me.
fuck spurs.
they gloat at a draw in the bernabeu. we BEAT Zidane there as a PLAYER! haha.
18th May 1991âŚa glorious day. 'Cos itâs when that lot last won a decent trophy.
From and including: Saturday, 18 May 1991
To and including: Saturday, 21 October 2017
Result: 9654 days
It is 9654 days from the start date to the end date, end date included
Or 26 years, 5 months, 4 days including the end date.
and still countingâŚ
even with their new ground, once wenger goes and weâre run properly, weâd still piss them out of the water.
Didnât they win the League Cup a handful of years back?