If we had sold Ox around the time Liverpool sold Ibe, would Gnabry have been off before the Olympics even began, before ‘he had a couple good games’ as you said? Don’t think it’s that speculative tbh. We exposed him to our disastrous medical procedures and lost a year of his career–this is speculation, I’ll admit, re: whether it would’ve been different with another club–we then sent him on a terrible loan, we had a lot to make up to the kid, and we didn’t do that, instead he just watched as someone like Oxlade Chamberlain was given opportunities in his position. We definitely could’ve avoided the situation with better management, I really don’t think that’s that speculative to say.
What does Ramsey offer, honestly? He offers us something in one position, and he is not happy to play there. In any other position he is downright calamitous. Selling him after the Euros was as obvious a business as it gets. We didn’t do it, naturally.
@TheSpecialCnut , you weren’t on the forum before. After Ramsey’s great season and another season where he looked good in parts, I was optimistic on him, as it was reasonable to be so, and because I am an optimist by nature if a player gives me a reason to be so. But before that I was very much the one to point out his limitations.
@AboeCuellar Maybe but I can only talk about what you said when I was here, and you were really high on Ramsey and didn’t once mention his limitations. You do that, you big up player even when they haven’t prove or showed anything for long time.
There’s zero reason to think that Wilshere could be good at the wing, beyond technique he doesn’t have anything that show that he could play there, his final ball is lacking, his vision is poor and unlike Ramsey he doesn’t even offers workrate. Reminds me of the Diaby as DM crap you talked about, swearing he could play and had play there even when a) Diaby was always shit defensively b) Never had played as DM.
I mean what had Gnabry done to deserve this reaction, had two good games several years ago and a b-level international tournament and you don’t rate international football. Chamberlain is shit and we should get rid of him, but that isn’t a reason for keeping someone that hasn’t shown anything for Arsenal in year because they could come good, because that same reasoning could be used on any player.
I’m not really a big fan of Ox and Ramsey is what I’m saying, but as long as we don’t have reliable options to replace them I think it’s of no use to argue if they should be sold or not. Obviously if the club signed someone more competent of which we know that he’ll be better it’s a different situation but simply arguing that they should be sold with no one really taking over is not the way to go.
We’ve had this before but he would have still needed to go on loan somewhere. I know WBA isn’t exactly the best option available and I’m sure I’ve said it about half a dozen a times that he should be loaned to Germany somewhere, but saying that he should have had a future at Arsenal at the time would have simply been putting him ahead of someone else who’s at least somewhat reliable. So yea, it’s speculative.
Eh, the only way I see this situation change in any way is if the club offered him a deal earlier, but that’s me assuming that Arsenal wasn’t trying to do so.
He offers at least when he’s fit somewhat of a goal threat and he can offer a couple of runs, but honestly that’s just down to management at this point as far as i’m concerned. I know you used to be a big fan of the ‘do whatever you want approach’ by Wenger, but it always had it’s flaws that we had players that wouldn’t actually try to get into dangerous positions and I’d include most of what we have in that category with Ramsey at least trying to be different… Obviously he’s also quite limited in other ways, but Wilshere based on 2 goals at the very end of 2014/15 isn’t exactly the big answer we’re looking for at this point.
Hah, the length of the conversation is nothing new tbh. I’ve always had long discussions with Cuellar, especially when it’s about either Gnabry or Podolski. It will always end with him calling me weird in some way
Imo this does not signal the end of his career with us. We all know Arsene is always a couple years late to the party. Jack should have never been relied upon, yet Wenger protected him two years too long. Now we’ve got four guys that play in his position. Jack needs to play a lot and he’s never going to do that here even if by some miracle he stays fit the entire season. He’ll easily be Bournemouth’s best player. If he can prove that he can stay fit and he’s still the same Jack we grew to love, I’m sure he’ll be brought back and integrated into the team.
I agree. For me, this transfer is all about Jack proving his ability to stay fit for the duration of the season. His quality is obvious and if he stays fit, he will shine. If he however picks up another injury and is unable to play a consistent role in Bournemouth’s season, I fear for his Arsenal future.
It’s gotta hurt that telling everyone at the beginning of last season that you can be this deep-lying-midfielder, pinging balls from deep and pulling strings, to then get injured and have your season wrote off. THEN, a season later, your boss goes and buys basically a better, younger, fitter version of what you believed you could be (Xhaka).
Not sure what to make of this when the summer comes around next year. I still have this itch that Ramsey would like to ditch us for something new and that could variably free up a position for Jack, if indeed he proves himself this season at Bournemouth. I’ll be shocked if Wenger does give up on him considering he’s held onto the likes of Rosicky, RvP and Diaby for years whilst they underwent body transplants.
[quote=“sevchenko, post:301, topic:90, full:true”]
I rate a fit Wilshere ahead of Ramsey and Elneny they just don’t come close to him in terms of CM quality. We’d be better off waiting till January after the CL group stage and majority of the league cup is over. Then seeing where we’re at with him
[/quote]I agree, he is a better playe,r but he is always injured.
Saying that, if he goes to Bournemouth and stays fit foe most of the seasons, what does that prove?
Either our training system is wrong, or Bournemouth don’t push their players as hard.
What ever the reason, we know Wilshere’s ability, it’s his constant injuries we need to sort out, and going on loan to Bournemouth isn’t really the answer to that.
Eh, these things aren’t as uncommon as people make out. You might’ve said the same about Cazorla as a mediocentro before it happened. With good managers especially you can make these kind of minor adaptations to a new position without it being the end of the world.
There’s plenty of reasons to think Wilshere can be good in Ramsey’s position. And he definitely offers workrate, as much as Ramsey. He got caught upfield and out of position a lot as a CM but the same with Ramsey, at RW he can perform the same function except with 1) better technique and better link-up 2) more dribbling/more ‘explosion’ 3) I really believe the end product would come with him, he’s shown it in bouts, and it’s not like Ramsey’s end product has been good in the least since 2013-14. His final ball is lacking, that I agree with, but his ability as a ‘zone breaker’ (my friend taught me this term) is obvious, and the speed of link-up with him and others can definitely be there.
Gnabry I’ve been following since he was 16, the talent is obvious. He’s one of those players you look at and say: he’s got it. He also had more than two games several years ago, but memories are short. That same reasoning can’t be used on any player, no. Not many players have the talent and quality Gnabry have. I could turn around the argument and say look at Iwobi, give them an opportunity and look what happens, and then say, why can’t this happen to other similar talented players?
I rather doubt I didn’t mention Ramsey’s limitations. I’ve always pointed out the limitations in his technique, use of space, and speed of thought.
Eh, then how was it that Iwobi emerged last season? And again, I’ll say, in what way is Ox ‘reliable’? Reliably crap is not a condition for reliability as you are using it. Same with Ramsey in every position but RW, and even then, as I argue, I think Wilshere definitely has the conditions to be a better option than him in that position.
edit: btw, weon, it’s not true that Diaby was always shit defensively. If you look at his defensive stats from his one more or less complete season they are quite, quite good. I included them in my BPOAT (Best Post of All Time) on the old OA.
I dont see the point of a year long move as I’ve said before but Bournemouth may be the making of him .
It’s pointless talking about what Jack can or cannot do as he really hasnt played much football for a few years.
If he’s fit and on form we can benefit next Season if he isnt bye bye !
Eh, he played a couple of games which took about 3/4 of the season to become available.
Didn’t we have Walcott available at the time or am I putting it in the wrong year? Also Ramsey had at least a slightly better season that year than last.
If he plays a full season of football somewhere, sure, but until he’s shown that he can handle the football I really wouldn’t go that far. He’s not anywhere near where he should be in terms of end product.
I think Bournemouth was the best choice for him in England. I still wish he had gone abroad and learnt his trade. I think its quite sad that English players dont try their luck abroard a bit more
Going to Bournemouth though will help Jack no end. He will get playing time and he will be working with a very good young manager who i think will get the best out of him
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Halley’s Comet
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My real Dad
Tottenham win the league
a good Robert de Niro film post-2000
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