European Terrorism

Current Affairs
#211

Ergh - honestly what pieces of shit.

The US have caused all of this though - their entire approach to foreign policy intertwined with their national security has actually made the world a worse place. I absolutely do not sympathise with these fucktards, but I do understand the origin of hate towards the western world due to those that have led horrific acts against their families and religion.

I don’t how know reparable this all is anyway - the world may be a scary place in 30 years when the planet itself is fucked, and the people on it are even more crazy than before.

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#212

Yeah and Britain’s special relationship hasn’t helped matters either tbh.

#213

Offended by everything, ashamed of nothing 🤷🏻

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#214

Maybe partly but you’re underestimating the Saudi backed Wahhabi Jihadi movement which looks to brainwash young Muslims throughout the globe. It’s the driving force behind ISIS, Al Queda amongst others

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#215

Potentially - but the US’ approach to everything after world war 2 has been disgraceful. They’ve killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

They killed 1.5 million in North Korea and destroyed 70-80% of their buildings.

Another million in Vietnam.

Hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I mean, where does it end; and why are the US surprised that 90% of the world hates them; some to the point of extreme action/retaliation?

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#216

I don’t see the relevance of America’s war crimes in an anti-semitic massacre in Austria. We also aren’t seeing Korean and Vietnamese terrorists.

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#217

Considering the USA‘s backing of Israel I see the connection very clear, as it arguably has to do with political and religious reasons. They back Saudi Arabia and Turkey too, but that’s about a even more important religion, money

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#218

It’s not specifically relevant, you’re right. What happened in Vienna is horrible and it’s not right; the city will be scarred from this and will have to rebuild.

But, at a macro, foreign policy/war crimes of the US has been a significant catalyst to the world we live in today - particularly the global divide.

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#219

Look - when every single time the attackers claim to be Muslims, doing it in the name of their prophet and Islam, then who are we - non-muslims - to tell them they got it wrong? Clearly, they know their religion better than we do? I always find it amusing when the next lily white expert comes on TV and says “this has got nothing to do with religion”. Okay Rebecca, funnily enough the guy says it has got everything to do with their religion.

At one point it’s about time we stop blaming everyone else and start blaming the perpetrators and their ideology.

If their reasoning is that it is a-okay to behead innocent people, because their prophet was depicted in a cartoon, then we have got a big problem at hands that needs to be solved. Not by limiting our freedom to draw this caricature, which our ancestors fought centuries for sacrificing their lives, but by furthermore protecting, supporting and vocally and decisevely defending our liberal Western values.

If someone doesn’t feel at home here, they can leave. Nobody is stopping them. If someone feels offended by a cartoon and feels compelled to murder anyone over it, that person needs mental help or leave to a place where religious zealoutry is the order of the day.

If someone doesn’t like Western freedom and liberties or is selective about them, that someone can leave. Is free to leave. There are 50 nations out there where Islam dominates the culture, politics and laws. They are more than free to leave European soil and move to such a place that suits them better.

Charlie Hebdo mocks every religion, everything that they want and it is their right. It is nobody’s right to murder someone over these liberties.

I will staunchly support these liberties and defend them and no amount of faux-left shaming will stop me from it. Because the Left that aligns themselves with ultra conservative ideology, just because the adherent of it are mostly of a different skin colour, is the worst of people. They are devoid of principles, devoid of intellect and devoid of solutions. They contribute nothing but more destruction and eroding of precious freedoms we have had to built up for centuries.

I want equality for every race, every gender, ever sexual orientation, every creed, every single human being should be equal to one another.

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#220

Extremists have existed in the name of their religion for decades. Look at Ireland. Look at the crusades.

These groups are designed to destabilise. Yet the religion themselves is designed to remove all accountability.

Religion will forever be interpreted by the beholder and will forever cause violence.

It’s far easier to be agnostic/atheist than to align.

#221

Why would it anyone’s right to be able to mock peoples religious beliefs though? I don’t understand the idea that people should have a right to make fun of something that is important to so many people.

I don’t get why humour has to offend hundreds of millions of people in order for it to be funny.

I’ve never understood this idea of “upholding” free speech and how people should have the right to mock religion. There’s a lot of resentment towards the West because of their “holier than thou” attitude and how they so brazenly intervene in other countries domestic policies for their own self interest.

I don’t condone terrorist and I often thin most terrorist attacks are young and vulnerable men / women being exploited by people who would never carry out an attack themselves.

But there has to come a point where people realise that what happens on European soil is a drop in the clean to the millions of lives in the Middle East and North Africa that have been directly impacted by European superpowers and the USA.

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#222

Just because you’re offended doesn’t make you right.

Keep drawing the cartoons. That’s not the problem and sets an awful precedent.

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#223

Because who is the arbiter of what is offensive and what is not?

Millions are offended and millions see no problem with it. More so, this is done in a country who’s values are incredibly strong on the stance of freedom of speech and the right to express one freely.

To me it is offensive that someone believes in a God.

Why would my feelings not be valued the same then as that of a religious person being offended by a caricature? Who decides x feelings are more valid than y feelings?

Why is religion put on a pedestal? To me it is nonsense, but will I limit a religious person praying? Nope. Do what you want. But a religious person beheading someone because a cartoon is drawn. Yeah, that is a problem for me.

A cartoon can NEVER be an excuse to behead, shoot, kill, maim people. Any defence of that is contrary to anything reasonable and sane in my book.

The Enlightenment has freed the people’s mind from (Christian) religious dogma back in the 17th and 18th Century. And I wholeheartedly understand the French defending it. They risked too much and fought too long to achieve it, so it can now be undermined by a new ideology that undermines French values, French law and French culture in fundamental ways.

When I watch the news and see 10000s of people frothing at their mouths in Pakistan or elsewhere, burning flags, inciting violence, because a cartoon was drawn of their prophet, but they lose zero sleep - and even in some cases support it - over the killing of innocent people in response. That to me is a problem.

The entire point of freedom of speech is that people must be free to express themselves without fear of retribution.

As I said before: anyone not agreeing to the values and liberties of a country they are in, they are free to move to another country that aligns better with their own values.

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#224

Because its ok to mock a set of beliefs or ideas. Its ok to mock or criticise someone’s political leanings and for many people their political leanings are as important and influential to how they live their lives as religion is for others, so I don’t see why a distinction should be drawn. People choose to subscribe to a religious ideology much like they do a political ideology, so I see no reason why that choice should be treated differently.

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#225

I’ll never understand the idea that people should have a right to mock peoples religion.

I don’t even subscribe to a religion. I believe in God, I believe God created the earth and everything around us and I’ll die with that belief.

People who are not Muslim will never understand how sacred it is with the religion to not depict the Prophet in any form. So when people so freely do it in the name of “humour” and free speech it’s frankly outrageous to me too.

Not to mention France specifically have long mistreated Muslims and North Africans that inhabit their land (which they have a right to do after French conquests in North Africa). So the French then choosing to openly make fun of Muslims is far deeper than just some light hearted humour. It’s long has links to the deep xenophobia and racism that exists in France.

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#226

Indeed, we do not understand because it is alien to us and it is wrong to impede us from expressing ourselves. You don’t have to like it, you can say it is outrageous and you can hate us for it. But, you cannot ever justify killing us for drawing a cartoon about anything.

They make fun of Christianity, Judaism, and anything else too. In abhorrent ways. So why not Islam? Why the special exempt status for Islam? Because you are offended? So are Christians, Jews and others who have been subjected to caricature. However, they don’t go about slitting people’s throats and beheading them for depicting cartoons.

That’s not how it works.

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#227

Satire is an important part of the free press and by extension democracy, no set of ideas should be exempt from being targeted by it imo.

Their religion might prohibit them from drawing the prophet Muhammed, but nobody else is bound by that, just like nobody has to adhere to any of their other rules like not eating pork or drinking alcohol.

I choose the path of not offending people about their religion because I know how dear many people hold it and I’d prefer to get along and not antagonise people about it. I think that’s more conducive to a happy and cohesive society.

But in a case where a professor showed a cartoon in an academic setting and then got murdered, theres only one side of the argument that I feel I can reasonably side with, and it doesn’t involve talking about this professor offending people as if that’s in any way a reasonable contributory factor to the awful thing that then happened to him. Like I wouldnt look for patterns in the behaviour of a rape victim to help explain why they got raped by someone. (Not to say this is what you are doing)

Edit: what I will add is this applies to every religion for me, its just that the discussion right here is naturally more focused on Islam. I hope everyone would take that as read but happy to add this note just in case.

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#228

In no way, shape or form do I condone any form of terrorism. I resent anything that leads to somebody being innocently killed (or killed in any capacity for that matter).

I especially think the teacher who got murdered is an outrageous case because by all accounts he attempted to be respectful and gave Muslim students a chance to leave the class.

I will never support it. I do not even like most of the ideals that exist within Islam as a religion.

The point I’m making is more a general point about France and it’s huge problem with domestic terrorism. France are a nasty and racist nation who mistreat and so openly and brazenly attempt to offend Muslims. They’ve long had a well documented problem with Muslims and North Africans in general and it isn’t even hidden out there.

What I’m trying to say is that when you spend years openly offending someone in the name of free speech (which it isn’t, it’s just the French continuing to antagonise its Muslim population) eventually you’re going to run into problems with nut cases and those who have been exploited by sick, twisted older people.

I just don’t think anybody should have a right to offend peoples religious beliefs in the name of satire because they’re often doing it from a place of ignorance. When you don’t understand something, you run the risk of really offending people when you choose to make fun of them.

All in all, I think that Islam as a religion is unfortunately one that has so many people within that choose to exploit its teachings and leads people down a really bad road. It’s such a big shame. And it’s one of the reasons I chose to distance myself from it because not only did I not agree with it, I found myself not even really wanting to associate with so many people I grew up with because I don’t agree with so much of what they used to say.

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#229

The French don’t have a recent history of persecuting and belittling Christians and Jews - they almost certainly do with Muslims and North Africans in particular.

That’s why it’s worse because it doesn’t come from a place of just harmless satire it often comes with deep seated xenophobia and racism that exists in France. They don’t do it for fun, they do it because they genuinely want to antagonise the Muslim population.

I also don’t agree with making fun of Jews or Christians in any capacity my knowledge base of what kind of satire the French produce regarding the aforementioned is limited. I can only speak from my own experiences in France and they were extremely negatives

#230

Fine, but then I expect you to hold the principles and ideas I subscribe too just as highly, and don’t expect you to mock, criticise or satirise them. Those principles may not involve a celestial being but I treasure them just as much as most religious people do their religion, they inform the way I live my life so you have to respect them.

Except I don’t really expect that of anyone, because a society in which you can’t criticise such important and influential ideas doesn’t sound like a good one to me.

So you’d distance yourself from people because you don’t agree with some of the religious things they said, but you think people shouldn’t be able to criticise those same ideas? I don’t really get it tbh mate, it sounds like you are critical of some of those ideas yourselfm

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