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Thread: Tonight was the turning point...

  1. #16
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    Blaming the Board and Wenger is the only right thing to do. They are responsible for the mess right now, not the players. There is only so much players can do, but if they are average, then they are average. It is up to the management to get the right mix of player quality and they have miserably failed.

    I am not going to blame the players anymore. Those who have left have proved to rightly have done so. The Club has shown zero ambition in the trophy department.

    And making excuses for losing to a fourth division team, even though it is "only" the carling cup, with us fielding almost our strongest team is pathetic.

    A change in revenue for Arsenal FC is the only thing that will change these idiots' minds and it might happen very soon as in our current form and shape I cannot possibly see us securing CL football and we have no star players left to sell for big money. With all of that happening they will see the fan base dwindle down and consequently revenue go down the drain as well.

    Well done Arsenal FC. Well done.


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  2. #17
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    Lets see what happens come May with what players we will/wont buy in January and where we sit in regards to League and cups. I personally feel as much as its really, really bad at the minute getting rid now will not solve anything IMO.

    Been on Sky Sports and seen this comment, I did chuckle...

    c saysDecember 12, 2012 10:30am

    I have supporting arsenal since i was very little and am now 17 i think it is about time wenger got the sack and new manager is introduced. We have some world class players in the team but the manger is the problem!!! get him out asap. If he stay he needs to make sure he signs at least 3 players in januray and renews walcotts contact.


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  3. #18
    Cool Operator Sharif the gooner's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judders View Post
    Lets see what happens come May with what players we will/wont buy in January and where we sit in regards to League and cups. I personally feel as much as its really, really bad at the minute getting rid now will not solve anything IMO.

    Been on Sky Sports and seen this comment, I did chuckle...

    c saysDecember 12, 2012 10:30am

    I have supporting arsenal since i was very little and am now 17 i think it is about time wenger got the sack and new manager is introduced. We have some world class players in the team but the manger is the problem!!! get him out asap. If he stay he needs to make sure he signs at least 3 players in januray and renews walcotts contact.
    The fate of Arsenal decided by a 17 year old . Vunderfla . I often say that AW should be judged just as any other manager and if the situation is no better by May then decisions need to be made . But its the decision of the people above Mr Wenger that needs to be influenced . Its either they drastically help him or they help him to make the decision that is right for his own sanity.
    "Play for the team on the front of the shirt and people will remember the name on the back" . Tony Adams once said that he never felt the need to kiss his badge because supporters knew he was dedicated to Arsenal .



  4. #19
    Silver member Super Collider Champion flower match 2 Champion Extreme Blocks Champion Number Revolution Champion Chicken Went Nuts! Champion Bunny Hop Champion Zombie Zombie Champion shamrockgooner's Avatar
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    Must say some excellent points made throughout here and I agree mostly with what Ray says in the opening post although certainly not wholesale and the Arsene is Arsenal is certianly a point I will never agree with.

    I think if a poll was to be taken we'd be close enough to 90% syaing they think it's time he left at this point. I never thought it would get this far and I think most of us have now got to the point that even with a trophy most of us would still feel his time has passed.



  5. #20
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    One of the problems if AW either left or was sacked, who would want to takeover from him?



  6. #21
    Silver member Super Collider Champion flower match 2 Champion Extreme Blocks Champion Number Revolution Champion Chicken Went Nuts! Champion Bunny Hop Champion Zombie Zombie Champion shamrockgooner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by james_19742000 View Post
    One of the problems if AW either left or was sacked, who would want to takeover from him?
    I'm prepared to do it myself for the time being. Stevie Bould can sign the teamsheets as I don't have my A licence yet.



  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by shamrockgooner View Post
    I'm prepared to do it myself for the time being. Stevie Bould can sign the teamsheets as I don't have my A licence yet.
    Ill join you then! The stumbling block would be the wages I think! I mean how would you cope having a wage of £50K per week or something!



  8. #23
    Silver member Super Collider Champion flower match 2 Champion Extreme Blocks Champion Number Revolution Champion Chicken Went Nuts! Champion Bunny Hop Champion Zombie Zombie Champion shamrockgooner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by james_19742000 View Post
    Ill join you then! The stumbling block would be the wages I think! I mean how would you cope having a wage of £50K per week or something!
    I'd have a grumble about taxes obviously but I think I'd struggle through.


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  9. #24
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    I knew this would happen. Been on these forums since 2007... from 2008 I tried to tell everyone that something was wrong with the club and wenger, but nobody listened.. or even bothered to understand what I was trying to say.

    5 years later, now everyone finally realises what the problem is. Wenger knows that the less he spends, the more money in bonuses is given to him at the end of the year when he has a meeting with the board.. Watch when he leaves, you'll see the 'truth' released to the public. It's a shame so many fans are blind.. even worse that they're using their hard earned money to feed the board's and wenger's pocket.

    Season ticket for AFC? Must be fucking joking. Once the top get the fuck out, then I'll reconsider. Cunts, all of them.


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  10. #25
    Gunner4Ever Sunny310c's Avatar

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    Let me just start by saying I have nothing but respect for Arsene and what he has done for this club and I really don't think there will be another manager like him at this club. That is not to say that there won't be another successful manager at this club but just that his genius, his professorial quality, his intelligence, his philosophical bent of mind and class is are rare commodities in today's footballing world.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArseneCuellar View Post
    Blaming Wenger and the board for me always has been and remains kind of like blaming God for your problems; it's a satisfying and emotionally resonant explanation that avoids having to go into much deeper analysis and avoids having to accept not so satisfactory explanations, explanations that are hard to hold on to, that one can't use in moments of agony without feeling rather absurd, or exhausted by analysis.

    As for blaming Wenger's lack of success on the board, I don't believe that either; they have always been in this together, it has very much been an agreed upon vision--if anything more Wenger's than the board--and Wenger is a man of great conviction in his principles and great dedication to them, I don't think for a second he would've stayed if he felt that the board were every bit as money-hungry and greedy as City or Chelsea's owners are glory-hungry and willing to pursue such glory by any means necessary. The idea that there has been some rift between the board and Wenger or that they have kept him repressed and locked up under their totalistic money-grubbing regime is really supported by exactly no evidence, and logical suppositions actually suggest the exact opposite.
    I agree with this a 100% but would just like to point out that this is merely what you think and you and I don't have any evidence to support this either. We just think this way based on our understanding of Wenger's character & personality.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArseneCuellar View Post
    The difference, right now, between you the majority of fans--including you IORP and Robin, two posters I clearly quite like--and Wenger right now is your lack of vision and patience in compared to that of Wenger. If Wenger stays true to his vision and his principles this club will be experiencing moments of glory within the next 2 to 3 years, the only great risk I see is that Wenger caves on his convictions in principles under the great pressure and backlash from the likes of the media and the fans who are ever more against him, and ever more widening the gap between the breadth of their vision and patience and that of Wenger's. At some point perhaps the great gravity of that lack of vision and patience and emotional continence pulls Wenger's down with it, perhaps it already has done so--I would argue it perhaps already has, as signings like Gervinho and Podolski have struck me more as signings to appease the fans than ones that truly fit in Wenger's vision, ones that he truly felt passionate and 100% behind, and the fact he put out such a strong side in tonight's match (much to our detriment, I insist) suggests the pressure to turn the tide of public opinion and erase the "no trophy in ___ years insult" has again caused him to waver against his better judgment.

    The greatest danger, for me, is without a doubt this, that Wenger will more and more yield to the pressure and to attempts to appeasement of the fans as the fans become more and more venomous against him. Every time I listen to one of his press conferences and he speaks of the situation in England and the fans and speaks of it philosophically--such as in the quote in my signature--I feel better much better and less worried about the future of Arsenal, but I worry that in his private moments he is perhaps less strong.
    This is the part I don't get. What do you expect to happen in the next 2 or 3 years that has not happened in the last 7 years? I think you are referring to the next generation of players coming through our youth system. If that is indeed the case, then you are expecting a Dortmund kind of revival. We have a promising set of players but then I have been hearing that for the last 5 or 6 years and with the exception of Jack and Gibbs, no one else as really made it here and there is no guarantee that the current generation of youth will be any more successful than their predecessors. Even if they are really good, what are the chances of us being able to hang on to them when the bigger teams come calling, which they will if these kids are that good. And I can't believe that all these years, all Wenger has been working towards is putting a good youth program in place and that these 4 or 5 promising young but unproven, untested players are the culmination of 7 years of work that Wenger has put in. That doesn't sound all that convincing to me.

    As for the pressure you say he is feeling from the fans, TBH, that just comes with the job. If you can't handle the pressure, however just or unjust it is, you really have no business managing one of the highest profile clubs in the world. If you find yourself wilting under the pressure and making decisions that you wouldn't be making otherwise, then you have let the pressure to get to you and it is perhaps wise to get yourself out of that situation before you do something you would regret. And I don't agree with Gervinho and Podolski not being a 100% Wenger signings.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArseneCuellar View Post
    So a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts, that's the biggest danger. In this way it's really you the fans that can most hurt Wenger and the club, sadly, in fact if I were to choose one group most to blame between Wenger, the board, and the fans and media for the way things have gone for Arsenal in the last 7 years I would not hesitate to say it is the fans and media. This club would be in a much better state if the fans were as dedicated and loyal to the cause and to supporting the team without whining like petulant bitches as Wenger has been to carrying out his long-term vision, as the constant state of emergency around the club not only creates a poisonous home atmosphere that has played a big part in our sub-par home performances since moving to the Emirates, but leads to not-so-big-defeats-in-the-large-scope of things like the CC in 2010-11 snowbaling into huge setbacks in the large scale of things for a team that was already pretty much there, and now it continues to negatively effect the conviction and confidence and calmness of our players that they desperately need to do well (people always talk about the differences between us and United, the difference between Fergie and Wenger...look no further to the calmness that United have about them that we cannot because of the atmosphere we live within: go look and listen to Wayne Rooney after the Manchester derby, he says with consummate calmness how basically, yeah, we just always feel completely confident we can comeback whenever we fall behind, it's just something we've done over the years....it's a positive feedback cycle folks, and they've been reaping the benefits of years of that positive feedback cycle breeding more and more confidence and calmness...a big part of the reason,much more so than all the clichés people like to bring out about Fergie and his ability to inspire and motivate and get the best out of every player, every performance, that United constantly seem to get more points than their talent deserves, meanwhile our negative feedback cycle that we live on the end of about 3-4 years of evolution of breeds exactly the opposite) and worse, as I argue above, seems to be arguably beginning to effect Wenger himself, the one man who--thanks to his exceptional intelligence and ability to parse out and analyse what's what--has managed to stay detached from it all and keep calm and use his enormous abilities to guide the club through crisis after crisis.
    I think the majority of the fans have only recently started to lose faith in Wenger and his methods, and by recently, I mean this year. I don't remember him having to listen to chants of "you don't know what you're doing" in any season before this one. Yes, the team was booed on a few occasions but that was not a comment on him but on the performance of the team. I think the fans have been patient for the majority of the last 7 years and have only started voicing their concerns now because things are worse than ever before under Arsene. After 7 years of patient support and belief in him, if the team is the worst it has ever been under him, you cannot blame the fans to begin to question him and his methods. Most of us know he cannot win anything with this team. In fact, a lot of us here are resigned to the fact that we will not win anything until the debt on the stadium is cleared and while we are not okay with it, we don't blame him for it. But what has happened this season has started to shake the belief that the fans have in him because we can't remember a team like this under him ever. There are genuine concerns about our ability to stay in the elite group (CL group) of the English game. So, this much of pressure and public criticism should be expected unless of course you are suggesting that he is bigger than the club and therefore beyond all criticism and questions.

    As for the calmness of United and their supporters, lets see them go without a trophy for 7 years and then see how calm they are. Their calmness is fueled by their constant success. The calmness is built on their past experiences of coming back from hopeless situations on a regular basis. The Arsenal fans have seen disappointment on a regular basis, and I am talking about the big occasions here. After 7 years of seeing us fail when it matters the most, you have to excuse the fans if they start to feel a familiar feeling of disappointment the moment things start to go south. Am not saying that our fans are justified in booing the team. What I am saying is that its easy for United's fans/players to be calm when they know their team will find a way back, no matter how bleak the situation looks as they are used to it. I am willing to bet my house that if tomorrow Fergie were to retire and United were to go even 4 seasons without winning anything under the new manager, Old Trafford will not be a very pleasant place to be in.

    Finally, I don't think Arsene should be asked to leave, not that there is any chance of that happening. I think the man has earned himself a chance to dig himself out of this hole and this January window will be that chance. If we are back in the top 4 by the end of the season, I think things will be back to normal. But yes, in the long term, we should start looking for a replacement. Even if he were to continue till the end of his current contract, we should start the process of finding a replacement for him.


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  11. #26
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    I felt kinda sad reading your post @ArseneCuellar if only because it is so similar to some of the things I was saying only about 3 years ago, but it does come across as the words of an extreme Wenger apologist.

    The idea that Gervinho was signed to appease the angry mob is the stuff of pure AKB fantasy, Wenger has clearly been his own man and has stamped his own authority on every signing in the post-Dein era.

    The fan and media criticism is part and parcel of this "Buy Now Pay Later" society we have become, where instant success is craved at every turn. All other clubs at the top are subject to the same pressures, but it doesn't help that we pay the highest prices and many people can't afford them. But it is also a reflection of being caught up by clubs other than Manchester United/City/Chelsea, most of whom have now assembled better squads than us on less money. Wenger's lost his touch in the transfer market with signings like Gervinho and also on the training field with too many players that appear poorly motivated to play for us.
    "What is Dick Law doing? Who is Dick Law? Is Dick Law just a myth?"

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    Let's bring some common sense back to football



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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradyMagic View Post
    OK, where to start? Plenty of people like those paying their money at turnstiles to stand on the terraces long before anyone had ever heard of Arsene Wenger were doing their bit for Arsenal and some will be doing it long after Arsene Wenger is gone too.......I reckon Pat Rice might think his 45 years might be worth a mention also.

    Do you reckon it was Ivan Gazidis who decided Almunia wasn't up to it but said Wenger could only bid £2m for Mark Schwarzer when Roy Hodgson was Fulham manager? Or when that was knocked back by Fulham do you think it was Gazidis's idea to send Wenger to go back and make the very same £2m offer again when Mark Hughes took over? It's these things I was on about the other day when saying some people would be naive not to think Wenger's hallmark was all over these situations.

    If it took David Dein to persuade Wenger to go after Sol Campbell even on £100k then that's worrying considering he was a free transfer and what a player like him would normally cost to replace a soon to be retired stalwart like Tony Adams. At that time Campbell probably would have gone for around £20m at least. I doubt his pay would have been more than the top rate of £60k we had then but with a signing on deal lump sum figure but spread out over the length of his contract would have averaged £100k once he made it to the end of his contract.

    If Wenger has taken up being actively involved in dealing with contracts and transfer fees then surely he's the one with the clout and the say on matters but it's then left to others to draw up the paperwork and see the deals through. This seems to be backed up by reports that Ferguson went directly to Wenger regarding agreeing on a final price including add ons over van Persie. Why was August 2011 transfer activity so rushed? I can think of at least 8 reasons on 28th August that season and add in a 0-2 home defeat to Liverpool and being out of the title race after 3 games and that's plenty of reasons, as was being on 1 point from 9 and in 17th place in the table and playing a back four of Jenkinson, Djourou, Koscielny and Traore at Old Trafford.

    If you put a square peg in a square hole and it fits then you stay with that, it that square pegs needs replacing then you don't do so with a round one, you do with a like for like. When England's #1 keeper David Seaman needed replacing Wenger did so with Germany's #1 keeper. At what stage did he decide that an uncapped #2 keeper who cost £2.5m from a club that had loaned him out 3 times was a good enough replacement after that? Same with going from Adams to Campbell to a whinging prima donna cry baby like Gallas and to somehow ending up at Silvestre. From Petit to Gilberto to Denilson, from Overmars to Pires to Eboue on the wing. Even van Persie was bought whilst Bergkamp was still here and was not too dissimilar and a replacement in waiting.

    Please, just kill me now!
    Ok so firstly, do you think as a club we'd be where we are now? Amongst the biggest clubs in the world? if it wasn't for Wenger? Do you think someone else could have achieved more than Wenger in the last 16 years if they were in charge?

    Arsene Wenger revolutionized english football, not just Arsenal, mother fucking the whole of ENGLISH FOOTBALL. He brought in new training methods, new philosophies, new tactics and foreign players from abroad for relatively cheap money and played a new brand of football Arsenal fans had NOT ever seen seen before.

    Heres a quote from Roy Keane on Wenger, you'd naturally think Keane wouldn't have anything good to say about Arsene but here you go.

    "There was a debate about Wenger on Sky and how crazy is that? People are actually getting interviewed saying he shouldn't be doing this.


    "What that man's done for English football is amazing and will be remembered in 25, 50, 100 years' time. Will those on telly yesterday be remembered for what they've achieved? None whatsoever.
    Now you think a minority group of supporters who've been going since the 70's or whatever have done more than Wenger?

    Now since time has gone on, football has grown. Scouting has grown, people in england take much more notice of footballers abroad, the value of players have grown. Do you think Wenger didn't want Hazard or Mata? He's publically came out and said he won't be buying Mata and can't tell people the reasons why. BECAUSE THE BOARD AREN'T FINANCIALLY BACKING WENGER ENOUGH.

    It's a shame when the Emirates Stadium debt is wiped off Wenger won't be the one to take advantage of it even though I still want him to go when his contract expires now, having seeing through that era of staying at the top on a shoe string budget.


    No matter what you say Brady, Wenger is the greatest manager we've ever had. The most successful manager we've had. No matter what happens, he'll always be remembered as one of the greats and an Arsenal legend.


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  13. #28
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    Otherwise, I agree with alot of your other points Brady, it's no coincidence most of the fuck ups happened post 2007, when Dein did leave.

    I just believe if anyone is as big as a football club then it's Wenger for all he's done for this club.



  14. #29
    Veteran Rocky Maivia's Avatar
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    Damn, finally IORP has made a good post that isn't bordering trolling or full of shit.

    Arsenal is really fucked isn't it?
    RobinVanTheMagic Loses it with Koscielny
    [13-01, 19:00] Gunning from Italy: Rocky, i still can't believe that french baguette lost us the game.Fuck off!Two times in row.
    [13-01, 19:14] Gunning from Italy: I can defende better than that french croissant.
    Chelsea Match, RobinVanTheMagic back in form

    [20-01, 12:54] Gunning from Italy: Oh fuck, Koscielny is back.



  15. #30
    Silver member Super Collider Champion flower match 2 Champion Extreme Blocks Champion Number Revolution Champion Chicken Went Nuts! Champion Bunny Hop Champion Zombie Zombie Champion shamrockgooner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky Maivia View Post
    Damn, finally IORP has made a good post that isn't bordering trolling or full of shit.

    Arsenal is really fucked isn't it?
    I'm blaming last night on you not finding a Bradford crest to put as your avatar.

    Completely irrational but there you go.



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