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Thread: Tonight was the turning point...

  1. #1
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    Thumbs down Tonight was the turning point...

    First of all before I go on Brady type essay post (which most likely won't be read by most anyway) i'd like to say that is is in no way another post to badmouth Wenger,Ramsey or anyone else... (maybe the board)

    For what Wenger's done for Arsenal, adding to the fact he's done more for this club than everyone combined on this forum has done for the club + the people in the crowd. I'll never bad mouth him, but i would like change at management level come end of the season, IMO Wenger has now come to a brick road in his management career due to the ineptness of the cunts behind the scenes. Gazidis being the main one. He has merely been hiding behind Wenger whilst he's taking all these hits. Now for the people who say the CEO does fuck all. I raise you David Dein, one thing I always look back too in David Dein's tenure was when Sol Campbell in the summer of 2001 was available on a free, the 1 stumbling block was his wage demand which was known at the time that Wenger wasn't sure paying him 100k a week as it was too much but Dein intervened and made sure this deal happened. Footballing wise he knew the effects that Campbell would have had.

    Now... We are in 2012, do you think we'd pay ANYONE 100k a week? Nevermind a world class CB for the time under Gazidis? Can any of you imagine Gazidis forcing through a transfer for a player to come in? No I can't, and neithar can any of you.

    Another problem has been, since Dein's departure it was made public from one of the Arsenal ITK's on Twitter that Wenger had took up the responsibility of controlling the financial side of the club, which meant contracts would go through him. Now people who play Football Manager will say "omg i do contracts all the time, simples" in the real world, football managers do NOT sort this out at the top level, as it's huge huge work dealing with agents and demands.

    Why do people think our transfer activity in August 2011 was so rushed? Simply because we had 1 man doing everything. Managing a team + controlling finances + delaing with unhappy players + contracts all take it's toll when you have nobody to assist you with it, these are all things Dein would have assisted Wenger with so he could focus fully on managing the team.

    For years Wenger has worked magic keeping us in the top 4 with the occasional title challenge added, but ultimately it's taken it's toll on the man. His management of the team has severely been affected. This is a man who was once known as the "french tactician" and "le profeseur" and made shrewd world class acquisitions on a shoe string budget, a man who once was cool and collected on the touchline and now has become an agitated and irritated old man due to all the stress he's been thrown at. I firmly believe if this isn't his last season (which it should be) then next season certainly has to be, as I don't feel he can recover from this. He has been well and truly fucked over by the people in the boardroom for hiding behind Wenger in all of this. This man loves Arsenal and had the opportunity to manage Barcelona in 2002 and Madrid in 2006, for that reason i'll never bad mouth him like some idiots on here most certainly will do between now and when his legendary era at the club comes to an end.

    I firmly believe he'll get a statue outside the ground in future years to come, like I said before, I have lost faith in his management abilities now.. but ultimately i'll never want him forced out the club because he deserves more than that and we aren't in as bad as a position as it's been made out to be by some "supporters"


    I raise you a few top class photos of Wenger to end this thread on, as I fucking guarantee you in our lifetimes we will NOT have another manager with the class and loyalty of Wenger. Fuck any other manager, they might give us a couple trophies then move on.. but they'll never show us the same loyalty that Wenger has. One day when we are all old and senile, we'll all look back and truly realise how lucky we were to have this guy manage us.

    Ultimately, Arsene is/was Arsenal, maybe not right now to some of you.. But you will all realise this one day.





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  2. #2
    @iamjoeking iamjoeking's Avatar

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    I don't like where we are and I have my doubts but seeing him manage another club would hurt really bad. Can't fathom him winning something elsewhere too and if he goes to PSG, you know he will...



  3. #3
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    I read your post, liked it and sadly agree with it in its entirety. Saves me having to write one as well.

    You did blatantly steal my usage of the phrase "turning point" from me in the MDC though, as well as choosing to have your turning point on the same night as me. Get some originality, yer?
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    Silver member Jacek's Avatar

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    He signed average players for average money, therefore he's responsible for the catastrophe we're facing right now, end of the story.


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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin_L View Post
    I read your post, liked it and sadly agree with it in its entirety. Saves me having to write one as well.

    You did blatantly steal my usage of the phrase "turning point" from me in the MDC though, as well as choosing to have your turning point on the same night as me. Get some originality, yer?


    Not going to deny it, I did. Couldn't remember who said it though. I just think we should allow Wenger to choose when he wants to leave, he's a smart man, he'll know when his times up but I wouldn't offer him a new contract.

    Let him keep his dignity and choose when he wants to resign, just don't renew his contract.



  6. #6
    OA First Team Girl_gunner_4eva's Avatar
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    Great post, completely agree with what you said, summed up my thoughts on Wenger.



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    deserves respect for achievements and loyalty



  8. #8
    Resident Law Student JoshF.'s Avatar

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    We might all think tonight is the turning point, but will any of the decision makers at the club feel that way? Nothing's going to change for them after tonight's results.



  9. #9
    Silver member ArseneCuellar's Avatar
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    Blaming Wenger and the board for me always has been and remains kind of like blaming God for your problems; it's a satisfying and emotionally resonant explanation that avoids having to go into much deeper analysis and avoids having to accept not so satisfactory explanations, explanations that are hard to hold on to, that one can't use in moments of agony without feeling rather absurd, or exhausted by analysis.

    As for blaming Wenger's lack of success on the board, I don't believe that either; they have always been in this together, it has very much been an agreed upon vision--if anything more Wenger's than the board--and Wenger is a man of great conviction in his principles and great dedication to them, I don't think for a second he would've stayed if he felt that the board were every bit as money-hungry and greedy as City or Chelsea's owners are glory-hungry and willing to pursue such glory by any means necessary. The idea that there has been some rift between the board and Wenger or that they have kept him repressed and locked up under their totalistic money-grubbing regime is really supported by exactly no evidence, and logical suppositions actually suggest the exact opposite.

    The difference, right now, between you the majority of fans--including you IORP and Robin, two posters I clearly quite like--and Wenger right now is your lack of vision and patience in compared to that of Wenger. If Wenger stays true to his vision and his principles this club will be experiencing moments of glory within the next 2 to 3 years, the only great risk I see is that Wenger caves on his convictions in principles under the great pressure and backlash from the likes of the media and the fans who are ever more against him, and ever more widening the gap between the breadth of their vision and patience and that of Wenger's. At some point perhaps the great gravity of that lack of vision and patience and emotional continence pulls Wenger's down with it, perhaps it already has done so--I would argue it perhaps already has, as signings like Gervinho and Podolski have struck me more as signings to appease the fans than ones that truly fit in Wenger's vision, ones that he truly felt passionate and 100% behind, and the fact he put out such a strong side in tonight's match (much to our detriment, I insist) suggests the pressure to turn the tide of public opinion and erase the "no trophy in ___ years insult" has again caused him to waver against his better judgment.

    The greatest danger, for me, is without a doubt this, that Wenger will more and more yield to the pressure and to attempts to appeasement of the fans as the fans become more and more venomous against him. Every time I listen to one of his press conferences and he speaks of the situation in England and the fans and speaks of it philosophically--such as in the quote in my signature--I feel better much better and less worried about the future of Arsenal, but I worry that in his private moments he is perhaps less strong.

    So a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts, that's the biggest danger. In this way it's really you the fans that can most hurt Wenger and the club, sadly, in fact if I were to choose one group most to blame between Wenger, the board, and the fans and media for the way things have gone for Arsenal in the last 7 years I would not hesitate to say it is the fans and media. This club would be in a much better state if the fans were as dedicated and loyal to the cause and to supporting the team without whining like petulant bitches as Wenger has been to carrying out his long-term vision, as the constant state of emergency around the club not only creates a poisonous home atmosphere that has played a big part in our sub-par home performances since moving to the Emirates, but leads to not-so-big-defeats-in-the-large-scope of things like the CC in 2010-11 snowbaling into huge setbacks in the large scale of things for a team that was already pretty much there, and now it continues to negatively effect the conviction and confidence and calmness of our players that they desperately need to do well (people always talk about the differences between us and United, the difference between Fergie and Wenger...look no further to the calmness that United have about them that we cannot because of the atmosphere we live within: go look and listen to Wayne Rooney after the Manchester derby, he says with consummate calmness how basically, yeah, we just always feel completely confident we can comeback whenever we fall behind, it's just something we've done over the years....it's a positive feedback cycle folks, and they've been reaping the benefits of years of that positive feedback cycle breeding more and more confidence and calmness...a big part of the reason,much more so than all the clichés people like to bring out about Fergie and his ability to inspire and motivate and get the best out of every player, every performance, that United constantly seem to get more points than their talent deserves, meanwhile our negative feedback cycle that we live on the end of about 3-4 years of evolution of breeds exactly the opposite) and worse, as I argue above, seems to be arguably beginning to effect Wenger himself, the one man who--thanks to his exceptional intelligence and ability to parse out and analyse what's what--has managed to stay detached from it all and keep calm and use his enormous abilities to guide the club through crisis after crisis.


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  10. #10
    Resident Law Student JoshF.'s Avatar

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    Really well written. Can't say I agree with you, but I liked it.



  11. #11
    Stubborn as fuck! BradyMagic's Avatar
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    OK, where to start? Plenty of people like those paying their money at turnstiles to stand on the terraces long before anyone had ever heard of Arsene Wenger were doing their bit for Arsenal and some will be doing it long after Arsene Wenger is gone too.......I reckon Pat Rice might think his 45 years might be worth a mention also.

    Do you reckon it was Ivan Gazidis who decided Almunia wasn't up to it but said Wenger could only bid £2m for Mark Schwarzer when Roy Hodgson was Fulham manager? Or when that was knocked back by Fulham do you think it was Gazidis's idea to send Wenger to go back and make the very same £2m offer again when Mark Hughes took over? It's these things I was on about the other day when saying some people would be naive not to think Wenger's hallmark was all over these situations.

    If it took David Dein to persuade Wenger to go after Sol Campbell even on £100k then that's worrying considering he was a free transfer and what a player like him would normally cost to replace a soon to be retired stalwart like Tony Adams. At that time Campbell probably would have gone for around £20m at least. I doubt his pay would have been more than the top rate of £60k we had then but with a signing on deal lump sum figure but spread out over the length of his contract would have averaged £100k once he made it to the end of his contract.

    If Wenger has taken up being actively involved in dealing with contracts and transfer fees then surely he's the one with the clout and the say on matters but it's then left to others to draw up the paperwork and see the deals through. This seems to be backed up by reports that Ferguson went directly to Wenger regarding agreeing on a final price including add ons over van Persie. Why was August 2011 transfer activity so rushed? I can think of at least 8 reasons on 28th August that season and add in a 0-2 home defeat to Liverpool and being out of the title race after 3 games and that's plenty of reasons, as was being on 1 point from 9 and in 17th place in the table and playing a back four of Jenkinson, Djourou, Koscielny and Traore at Old Trafford.

    If you put a square peg in a square hole and it fits then you stay with that, it that square pegs needs replacing then you don't do so with a round one, you do with a like for like. When England's #1 keeper David Seaman needed replacing Wenger did so with Germany's #1 keeper. At what stage did he decide that an uncapped #2 keeper who cost £2.5m from a club that had loaned him out 3 times was a good enough replacement after that? Same with going from Adams to Campbell to a whinging prima donna cry baby like Gallas and to somehow ending up at Silvestre. From Petit to Gilberto to Denilson, from Overmars to Pires to Eboue on the wing. Even van Persie was bought whilst Bergkamp was still here and was not too dissimilar and a replacement in waiting.

    Ultimately, Arsene is/was Arsenal, maybe not right now to some of you.. But you will all realise this one day.
    Please, just kill me now!
    Last edited by BradyMagic; 12-12-2012 at 08:45. Reason: Typo....too many doings, so a bit like Arsenal then!


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  12. #12
    Beep Beep!! Shill's Avatar
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    Thing is, we can sit here and argue over who should go and who should stay but at the end of the day Wenger is so entwined with the board that nothing is going to happen until Wenger decides he has had enough. The only way that can happen is if the fans protest constantly and get on his back sufficiently to make him think fuck it, I've had enough. I don't want this to happen becuase I don't think he deserves that.

    It's blatently obvious we need a change in direction from the top, but with silent Stan and Gazidas at the helm this is not going to happen.
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  13. #13
    Arsenal Maniac pawan's Avatar

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    Okay, there are three very well presented arguments within the first page of this thread, which is very rare to see. I agree with IORP in everything except that Wenger has lost his managerial skills. I dont think it is a piece of paper which you would misplace while tending to something more important. It is a skill which is built up with experience and pedigree and like once you learn to ride a bike, you never really forget it, Wenger has not suddenly misplaced his managerial talent which got him named the Manager of the Decade.

    But while I agree that blaming all on Wenger is not fair, I do think, being the manager, he has to take responsibilty of things. I think the situation inside and outside the club conspired to spoil things for Wenger. I doubt he had forseen such a change in the game in such a short time. And some of the comments he makes occasionally show that at points, he was disappointed that players he groomed did not believe in his dream anymore and wanted to leave. We must remember how close we were to winning the title in 08 and that at that time with Fabregas, Eduardo and the promise of Nasri and RvP, it seemed we were 3-4 years away from doing something great. Sad thing was that we lost the nucleus of that dream due to various reasons. And that cannot entirely be blamed on Wenger, though some of us will probably blame nobody else for it.

    At times now, Wenger looks hopeless that his own supporters are truly deserting him. I dont think Wenger sees the condition now as completely hopeless. Why would he stick with us for so long? Does he no get offer of higher payments from elsewhere? Bullshit. We talk about RvP having a right to leave because he had ambition. Does Wenger not have that right also? To satisfy his ambition? T walk out of here into Real Madrid or PSG and be handed over a chest of money to spend on all the Falcaos and Neymars he wants, never to have to think twice before handing a 20 year old a 150k a week contract? And yet he does not leave it in the middle. Because he sees something we fail to see.

    I know its hard to keep faith when the faith keeps failing us again and again. But then, I see IORP's last line. And contrary to Brady, I agree. I would never have been an Arsenal supporter if not for Wenger. Thus, Wenger has been Arsenal to me more than anybody else. I agree people like Pat Rice and Tony Adams have done tremendous things for the club. But all dwarfs when I think of what Wenger has done. Most managers manage clubs for their tenure. Wenger has already managed this club for long after he will be gone.

    I dont know if he will be sacked, I dont think so. But I dont think he should go. Because then he would be replaced with some gold digger like Mourinho who will come, win the league, then say bye and go. And we, for once, would be no better than Chelsea, or even Spuds.
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  14. #14
    Stubborn as fuck! BradyMagic's Avatar
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    Herbert Chapman is another name that springs to mind.

    For all of those having said in the past things like "don't you think Arsene Wenger has the club's best interests at heart?" or said that he's not a control freak and is happy to give others free reign to do things and let them take credit if it works. If it was suggested that someone else came in to help him and share the burden if he has to wear too many hats for one head, then what do you think would be his stance on that?

    Oh and for those who have only really known and supported Arsenal under Wenger, when he does pack up and a new man comes in, if he has a level of success early on and stayed for a decade or more, would you be OK with the next generation of fans telling you that as far as they were concerned that new man is Arsenal?



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    The problem is getting rid of Wenger you still have the same board members who will expect the same of a new manager as they do Wenger. We need either Wenger to be left to concentrate on football only, no financial crap, no dealing with transfers no worrying about debts. Then if he still fails he has to go but the board needs to go with him. It's a collective failure and a clean sweep needs to be made. Can't see either of these happening though.

    If it was Dien that always pushed Wenger in the right direction, then the board need to get on their hands an knees and beg him to come back.


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